How random are the RNG's that on-line casinos use?
My interest in roulette stemmed from my interest in random numbers.
There's no such thing since any number is the result of various forces -
perhaps even the motion of the wings of a butterfly.
When I was a young engineer (50 years ago) before computers and
transistors a random number was got from the book of random
numbers. Don't know how the numbers were generated but the
randomness at the user's end was the page opened, the column
chosen and the line chosen in the column.
The problem with truly random numbers is that you can't prove
that they're random although at least two companies claim to
be able to prove that casinos are serving random numbers.
Sophisticated RNGs get their input from a random source - perhaps
radiation levels in the atmosphere or even the background noise in
an office (but not on the week-end, I suppose!).
Sometimes two random sources are combined for extra randomness.
So how random are RNGs? No-one knows. Probably more random
than the spins in a land-based casino where human intervention is
involved.
If it was a fair random generator, then there would be no more diference with landbased casino's. But I have seen so many weird outcomes on rng's that i dont trust those suckers. Same as playing blackjack rng almost 100 losses against 20 wins, I never, never ever had those outcomes, when i was playing in a landbased casino. (Luckely i only lost 200)
My advice, never ever play rng!
What do you mean by random that's a better question i think.
I mean the software can adjust itself at your playing style, is that random? i dont think so.
I actually know a guy who is testing RNG on their randomness.
There is absolutely no difference in the randomness between land-casino and e.g. the RNG of Boss-Media-OC's
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fnolinks.roulette-board.de%2Fuploads%2Fpost-89-1212687381.gif&hash=48095f049ed4eae1ce46bf397ac6eb3fbc75af2a)
Results of a test RNG and landbased Casino of Travemünde/North-Germany
br
winkel
most people will see mofe spins on rng than in live casino since most people will play rng's that spin frequently or will watch online.
so with a rng that spins frequently you can get 2 spins in a min but at a casino you can get maybe 1 spin in 2 mins when busy. so in 2 hours - you could have 240 spins vs 60 spin. therefore more likely to see extremes happen?
Like I said before there would be no difference, if it was fair and every outcome would be unique. Once I was playing rng roulette I saw 10 ten's back to back?!? Same as playing rng for fun mode, you can play for months without losing, play online and your wiped out in days! I think rng are kind of programed like slot machines, people put in 10.000 they put out 9.500 someone has to pay for that 500.
Quote
Once I was playing rng roulette I saw 10 ten's back to back?!?
Same as playing rng for fun mode, you can play for months without losing, play online and your wiped out in days!
I think rng are kind of programed like slot machines, people put in 10.000 they put out 9.500 someone has to pay for that 500.
1. People who were betting other numbers are complaining, People who were on the ten were winning.
2. you have a personal Winning-Streak that will end at any time. So you´d better play fun-mode till you loose a fortune and then go to real-money.
3. If I have a guaranteed win of 2.7.%(5.4% when the idiots play american with 00) why should I betray?
don´t kill the cow, youre getting milk off.
(Obviously there might be some people who just wanna collect money and its okay to get some 100thousands in a few weeks)
br
winkel
Then whey are there so more losers on rng, then on a live wheel? Maybe because every rng game is individual based? And a live wheel is played by hundreds of people simultaneously? So it would be better to play at multiplayer rng's? But you hartly see anyone in those games?
QuoteThen whey are there so more losers on rng, then on a live wheel?
Can you prove that or is it just your impression?
br
winkel
Quote
Can you prove that or is it just your impression?
br
winkel
Ask around on this forum. I bet you never played any kind of progression on an rng.
Quote
I bet you never played any kind of progression on an rng.
You´ve lost!
The problem is: Loosers complain very loud. Winners just win.
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winkel
Tsjee I wouldnt be suprised that you work for an online rng casino. Keep it up mate keep "playing" rng. I just stick to live play, havent lost there yet, so who is talking about losers? ;D
If youre bets are as false as your ideas, than you must loose a lot.
I don´t work for a RNG-/OC!
That you win in a landbased Casino and loose at an OC, doesn't proof RNG are not random.
As I said, there might be some people ....
br
winkel
Dude, just take your head out of your arse and smell the coffee oke.
QuoteDude, just take your head out of your arse and smell the coffee oke.
I like this kind of conversation. ;D
Fellers........
I smell the coffee!
I really feel you guys are discussing two different things.
First, is a roulette wheel a mechanical random number generator? I think the jury is still out on that question.
Second, is a TRNG such as is found at Random.org and a computer program you are using at an on-line casino the same thing. Maybe, maybe not. Gismotron (where are you?) agreed with my statement that a computer could be programmed to beat you just by placing the puck where you have no bet. This is not random play; it is sucking your money off the table.
Has anyone played roulette at Random.org? I have. Program it to give you one selection out of 37 and 37 is the zero. It will not produce a zero. I saw some strange things and there was no enticement for me to bet or lose money.
TwoCat's Law of Numbers:
Numbers do strange things. If they didn't they'd do stranger things.
TwoCatSam
(a two-cat man)
@ TwoCatSam : You said
QuoteProgram it to give you one selection out of 37 and 37 is the zero. It will not produce a zero.
I don´t think i quite understand what you mean by that !!
I´ve taken loads of "virtual" TRNG spins from Random.org and i get zeros. HERE´S WHAT I DO (FOR EXAMPLE´S SAKE):
_________________________________________________________________________
>> I go to nolinks://nolinks.random.org/integers/ ------------ Then, i find roughly this:
....
Part 1: The Integers
Generate [highlight]1000[/highlight]
(EXAMPLE) random integers (maximum 10,000).
[highlight]Each integer should have a value between[/highlight]
[size=26] 0[/size] and
[size=26]36[/size] (both inclusive; limits ±1,000,000,000).
Format in [size=18]
1[/size] column(s).
_________________________________________________________________________
And that´s it ... we don´t need "37", we simply ask for numbers between 0 and 36 ...
as it should be... and believe me zeros will be there. ;)
Well, I reckon I did something wrong. I'll try again.
Thanks.....
No problem, TwoCatSam, hope you manage to overcome the zeros :)
They are random enough to steal all your money...doesn't matter what you bet, the ball will land on the number that you didn't cover...i've played a lot of rgn's roulette, and always it's the same story, at the start you win, after a while you stop to win, and at the end you lose, and when you try to play different rgn's to make like 10 quids for each for day, like 50-60 quids, they all make you lose at the start, no matters what you bet or what sistem you use...they are a programmed slots machine with a payout 80-20...with compliments to the random...i have seen a lot of strange things at least, the last one was when betting a sector 12 numbers around the 0, well when the ball was coming slow to my numbers, it starts to be fast just to go over them...instead when it was coming fast and it looks like to land there, it starts to slow down just to get the number before your sector...and another thing is when you bet a small bet sometime you can get away with it, but when you bet high or with a progression you'll get busted...and the minimum bet on rgn's is 10cent on most casinos, on the live wheels the min. is 1-2-5 pounds-euro-dollars, that mean something... and when you play for fun you win most of the time... and when you spin without bet, it look's like your sistem works, but when you bet money...houston we got problems...once i was betting on the 0, it was coming every 12-18 spins, i've started to bet on it, after 1 try i got it at the 36th spin...after that it missed for 174 spins....when i've stop to bet it....it come 3 in a row, and 5 times in 15 spins...so my opinion is that rgn's are to avoid like a plague, i never heard of somebody win at rgn's, a part the usually people they have claimed big wins without any prove of it...
Ivo
Not random at all, imo. I only play real casinos even though it takes me an hour to get there.
Quoteafter 1 try I got it at the 36th spin...after that it missed for 174 spins....when I've stop to bet it....it come 3 in a row, and 5 times in 15 spins...so my opinion is that rgn's are to avoid like a plague,
Ivo My Mate.
Don't take this the wrong way as I am not trying to get into a argument over Rng.
But based on your figures of spins 36+174+15=225 spins in total.
So the Zero hit 6 times in 225 spins = 1 hit every 37.5 spins
Thats pretty close to 1 in 37 spins Cobber.
Your Friend
Lanky
Indeed why do casino's have a minimum table bet of 0,25 cent on rng, and when its live, its changes to 5 or 10??? Like i said before If i could play on a multiplayer rng, i would play. But not on a individual programmed slot machine.
QuoteQuoteafter 1 try I got it at the 36th spin...after that it missed for 174 spins....when I've stop to bet it....it come 3 in a row, and 5 times in 15 spins...so my opinion is that rgn's are to avoid like a plague,
Ivo My Mate.
Don't take this the wrong way as I am not trying to get into a argument over Rng.
But based on your figures of spins 36+174+15=225 spins in total.
So the Zero hit 6 times in 225 spins = 1 hit every 37.5 spins
Thats pretty close to 1 in 37 spins Cobber.
Your Friend
Lanky
Hello Lanky, nice to hear from you, looks like you are recovering well :) yeah you are right about the statistic, but you should have seen the ball how it was running and landing...i was just betting 10p for bet, just to have a prove that something was wrong there....a lot of times it went on the 26 or 32 just accurately avoiding the 0...and finally after 174 spins that was missing, i've stopped to bet, it starts to hit the 0 like crazy :o 3 in a row and 5 in 15 spins...just after i've stopped to bet...it was so suspicious, and about the multiplayers roulette, yeah i've tried also this but is exactly the same...so no more rgn's for me, i'll start to play live wheels to see what it will be the income.. ;)
Regards
Ivo
Not wanting to get into a tiff either, but that "waiting for a waker" system is one I use on real wheels all the time. I see a number sleep for 74 spins and when it hits once, maybe it sleeps 150 spins, I bet it to hit the second time within ten spins.
Sam
QuoteNot wanting to get into a tiff either, but that "waiting for a waker" system is one I use on real wheels all the time. I see a number sleep for 74 spins and when it hits once, maybe it sleeps 150 spins, I bet it to hit the second time within ten spins.
Sam
Hi Sam, yeah i can accept it in a real wheel, that's the gambling no probs with that, but on a rgn wheel with the ball that is going fast or slow just to make you lose the bet, and you can clearly see it...i'm not going to play them anymore, most of the time you really feel that the machine is against you, specially on a progression, doesn't matter what you bet you'll lose, and if you stop the progression your number will came...i don't judge the statistic percentual for a number to hit, but it's just the way how the ball run and land everytime on the wrong numbers...it didn't look clean at all >:(
Regards
Ivo
Same with blackjack rng, I remember one time, when i was playing I made 300, next day when I started playing i lost it all. Why due ridiculous odds. I had 20 dealer had 12, card. dealer has 21. I had 21 dealer has 10, card. dealer has blackjack. I have blackjack, dealer has blackjack, this went on and on like almost 40 bets in a row. The total outcome was 9 to 1 for the house, which can happen ofcourse, but this happend to me 4 sessions straight. So that's 36 to 1!!!!! While normally the house edge is 1,5% for a blackjack game.
Sure rng is fair, in a computer lab, not in a casino.
"Sure rng is fair, in a computer lab, not in a casino."
Ah, there's the truth for ya!
Sam
[highlight]@Ka2[/highlight]
You said :
QuoteIndeed why do casino's have a minimum table bet of 0,25 cent on rng, and when its live, its changes to 5 or 10???
This is not correct. Some do, others don´t.
I play at a casino where the minumum bet at the
REAL [highlight]live[/highlight] wheel is 0,10 cent.
As to RNGs ..........
RUN AND DON´T EVER STOP RUNNING !!! ;D
I play with minimum 1ct!
and I do it just for fun, not for making my living out of it.
If you win 5%, you will win 5%. Doesn´t matter what the chip say´s
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winkel
0,10 cents at a live wheel? Where is that, if i may ask ;)
QuoteI play with minimum 1ct!
and I do it just for fun, not for making my living out of it.
If you win 5%, you will win 5%. Doesn´t matter what the chip say´s
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winkel
Wich casino lets you play for 1ct??? I've only seen 0,25 cent minimum table's
I play on a RNG-Casino.
and every time I tripled my bankroll by using my winning strategy i go and play american roulette with 0/00 playing EvenMoney-Chances with Martingale just for fun.
but KA2 you wouldn´t believe anything I tell you, would you?
Sure I believe you, your bankroll is probably 1 dollar. Playing with 1 cent gives you a 7 step martingale, and you play 3 hours per day to win 3 dollar, sounds like fun to me mate. Try to do the same thing with 1000 dollar br, your wiped out in a couple of days, trust me, we have all bin there.
the rng is in my opinion a programmed slotmachine, so by winning 1 dollar per hour, you are probably flying under the radar.
Why should I play with 1$ or even more?
QuoteThere is absolutely no difference in the randomness between land-casino and e.g. the RNG of Boss-Media-OC's
Finaly, thanks.
Cheers LS
QuoteWhy should I play with 1$ or even more?
Why play at all?
Just for Fun!
If you can´t do that, if youre trying to get Money back, to feed your folks, youre lost.
If I play for 1ct, I can feed my folks, i can pay my rent etc.
I sent them 50Euros 2 and a half year ago. and i'm still playing an today my bankroll is 58Euros.
Thats less than a normal man do spent for beer or chicks.
Gambling is not my problem, it´s the problem of the losers who believe they can win a fortune on a game where the house-edge is claimed to be 2,7% (or 5,4% for the very stupid, because they have to learn)
Naw I quit this as well, cause this problem is yours not mine to solve
@ Ka2 > I think i better not promote any casino, but it is mentioned here at the forum
Example : HERE >> nolinks://vlsroulette.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1205683885
It should be easy to spot :)
I will check them out, thanks for the link! :thumbsup:
Winkel, good to hear you're still winning. Indeed it really doesnt matter how big your bankroll is. Yours is 58 mine is 5000. You play for fun, I play for an extra bit of income. If that's a wise dicision, probably not. But i DO only play with money I can afford to lose, never ever play with money you need for the rent/food etc, or even worse borrowed money! That should be the number 1 gambling rule.
Good for you for resisting tempation. :thumbsup:
Tell me if this is normal - on line casino in practice mode
29 spins - column 1 hits 9 times, colum 2 hits the first 3 spins then disappears for the next 26 spins, and column 3 hits 16 times - also the zero appears 1 time
For the last 26 spins the ball landed on column 1 or column 3 - and column 3 had streaks of 5,4,3 and 2 while column 1 had 1 streak of 4 and 1 streak of 2
I ask if that was normal because I was betting on columns 1 and 2 (of course)
>:( I played a lot on the RNG sites before the live wheels came online. It became quite clear after a while that there were certain trigger events that the casino software would look for in my play. Once these trigger events occurred the game would change and I would lose.
However, I found I could increase my winnings if I played my game over a number of casinos, sequentially. I would play my first spin a casino 1, second at casino 2 and so on. This would hide my progression and total winnings. ;)
QuoteHowever, I found I could increase my winnings if I played my game over a number of casinos, sequentially. I would play my first spin a casino 1, second at casino 2 and so on. This would hide my progression and total winnings. ;)
Hmmm smart thinking!!! Never thought of this before, however, I think when you bet big at one casino, say at the end of you progression, and their software doesnt like you to win that big, you still loose. :o
Better Online Casinos using noise-based rng-s.
The best examples are for rng:
1.Random.org. (Numbers are generated via shortwave radio noises,simultan 2-3 different radios.
2.LavaRnd: (Numbers generated via webcam noises)
3.Random.info (Numbers generated via photonemissions)
These are guaranted not predictable and under no circumstaces can these be reconstructed.
The last two criteria are the alpha and omega habit of rng-s.
Try your "systems" against these on papier and pencil and in case you have success, you can go
to any casino. Of course the testing must be adequate long. Never think to find a winning strategy
after 400-500 spins. Take the acid test, eg. for plein Numbers at least 1,500,000 spins.
We made 10000 "Attacks" on Plein #-s after special and standard conditions (ca 2650000 spins)
and the result was always better than 10% winnings of the used party capital.
Coclusion: if something is able to do something like this, we could expect the same result later too.
But care is needed ! This is not a 100 % warranty for "nonstop" winning !!!!!!
I don't think there is even an argument about it , avoid rng , avoid it at all costs because it will cheat and steal off you. I spent a year playing rng and so too many obvious intelligent cheats from the rng.
Like i said before rng is not so dumb it can compute ways to make you loose. A real wheel has no intelligence so in my opinion is easier to beat. Rng is just a name it's not random its rigged.
Well, there is nothing wrong with rng-s, these are following exact the binominal distribution.
Rigged are the the programs, eg. all the numbers heavily "loaded" with chips will more than enough
time simply skipped. The only "remedy" against this "phenomen": never play alone at "private" table!!