I played rng and quickly got the feeling that this was not a random thing. To many strange things happens that I've never seen on online live roulette or real roulette. Thing like:
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2Foh0jle.jpg&hash=8eb9f5208c966faa29d4d5986503c9e7cbdb157b)
Here I played 2 dozens...and yes it hippytyhopped nicely to every dozen I didn't have...it felt like I was trying to catch a frog but everytime I was 1 step behind.....and look at the numbers...does that seem random? And yes I know this can be random...but if this, and lot's of other things just like this, keep happening over and over again and only at rng and only if your not betting on it then to me it smells at least fishy.
The straw that broke my back was the number 22 dropping 7 times in 14 spins. Believe me or not before the bottom 22's there was also a 22....after 3 times 22 in a row I thought what are the odds?....but a couple of spins later my jaw dropped.....not only 7 times 22 in 14 spins but also 2 times 3 times in a row.
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2Fxdwb4w.jpg&hash=38009abc2c1d52ff5c579025cad2027fca5744d3)
Lot's of people say rng is not random...some say it is. I don't want to be rude but from the people who say it's random I found out that most of them are people who say they have a winning system but can't tell anything about it. To me that sounds a bit like' I have an invissible dragonfriend...and no ofcourse you can't see it'.
Although I thought for sure rng was not random I wanted to be sure...like some people say maby I was just unlucky.....all the time everytime....so I started to do crazy bets and soon find out this is truly not random. Things like this happend over and over again:
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F2hncc93.jpg&hash=7e0022b32bb3aff3bc46c417692a967d5485590d)
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi56.tinypic.com%2F2n87xg3.jpg&hash=370c935d0e8b9de5ab80c6861badb6be85a0d75d)
1 black and 1 zero in 26 spins...the rest all reds....how many times do you think this will ever happen if you play progressive on red?......now try betting progressive on black and it will happen over and over again. Has any1 ever seen this on a real roulette?
I smilled and kid myself and said man I can make colours and the zero appear at will...but I can't bet on it...what irony.....then I thought this was the best way to proof myself this is not random....because for me that would be 100% proof...if I truly can make the colours appear then....yes then what else can proof it better?.....so here I went:
First I went for black by betting progressive on red....
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi55.tinypic.com%2F2lu8ug.jpg&hash=30e42f162af917f335d10fd6485dace346e9edc7)
then after number six I went progressive on black.
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2hfurgm.jpg&hash=77c363d9bd5a28750eca82602311d830819eda10)
If you have a bag of money to burn and nothing to do just try it yourself...you can make the colours and the zero appear at will on a rng.....what proof do you want more?
I did this with 3 different rng's at 3 different casino's....all the same results.....I have so many screenshots it would take hours to all put them here....I wouldn't say these things if only 2 or 3 strange things had happend....and the money I lost is not a nice feeling but I don't cry about...was money for gambling not for food....so I don't put this all here to cry or be a negative nancy...I put this here in the hope that others will be carefull with rng's...wanna play 'm fine...but be carefull. What you see in this topic is proof for me that rng is not random...if some1 has proof it is random I hope you will put it also here.
Oh and yes.....ofcourse the most silly thing of all....if I came to my last euro I always put that on 1 number...in this case it was number 20....look were the ball landed. I contacted the live help...just reset the game he said....so ofcourse bye bye euro.
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2i6mjb6.jpg&hash=205e42cb25870e4700ccaa9c5190f37156d6067a)
All random means is that if the wheel was spun 37,000 times then each number, and 0, should show up 1,000 times and it can be in ANY order.
Beyond that 0 could show up 1,000 times in a row and then 1 shows up 1,000 times in a row, etc.
Granted if anything like that occurred there would be questions to answer but seeing Red show up 20 times in a row can easily be expected every night on every Roulette wheel in a casino.
Here's an article about testing: nolinks://nolinks.random.org/analysis/ (nolinks://nolinks.random.org/analysis/)
The issue is not the accuracy of randomness in 500,000 spins. The issue is cheating algorithms added to the process.
All you need is an analytical process based on a few if/then based algorithms.
Like this:
Analyze all bets for potential risk to an accrued win rate.
if condition for risk exceeds 90% then execute a correction process
if execute is true then select a number with least payoff.
You could also use it to kill off big payoff bets for progression users.
Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 15, 2011, 04:57:24 PM
The issue is not the accuracy of randomness in 500,000 spins. The issue is cheating algorithms added to the process.
All you need is an analytical process based on a few if/then based algorithms.
Like this:
Analyze all bets for potential risk to an accrued win rate.
if condition for risk exceeds 90% then execute a correction process
if execute is true then select a number with least payoff.
You could also use it to kill off big payoff bets for progression users.
Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.
I keep asking why a casino needs to cheat?
Who would do the cheating? Management? Why would they risk prison over a few bucks for a company?
They are all parts of Fortune 500 companies in this country and probably large corporations overseas - they make a fortune without cheating.
Since no one has come forward with any credible links on this subject we have to conclude that casinos don't cheat.
If you believe they do then don't gamble - take up another hobby.
To have no evidence and still assume casinos cheat is lunacy - you simply arrive at the same conclusion - don't gamble.....
The length of a representative sample for a statistic test depends on the possible outcomes of chance.
For this example I don`t account the zero.
numbers possible outcomes 36
single street ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,12
double street ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 6
dozen ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 3
EC ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2
Maths use a formula to comput the length of the sample
I think for the numbers a 1M sample is not enough to become trustful results to gather evidence for manipulation.
Suspect results of a 1k sample of the ECs make me suspicion.
MauiS a row of 20 ECs occurs on average once in 2^20= 1048576 spins.Compute howmany evenings you can visit the casino to have a chance you will see a row of 20 reds. Sorry I shall not accompany you.It can happens to morrow but also after years.
I don`t say RNG roulette is cheated but be careful .
Guys, it's becoming painfully obvious that "breaking roulette" quickly runs out of rational theories and we must therefore start down the Twilight Zone path to solutions:
1) There are patterns in random numbers that can be found and used to predict future outcomes
2) Roulette wheels have defects which allow us to find them and use them to predict future outcomes
3) RNGs are flawed and we can find patterns which can be used to predict future outcomes
4) Casinos cheat and want more than the built in house advantage
There are probably more wacky theories that some believe in.
These are ALL phony - there is nothing to any of this. There are NO links you guys can supply that support these wacky theories and yet these are the foundation to 90% of the crazy systems that float around and are sold.
Money management is 100% under your control as is picking the games you want to play. Roulette is basically a 50/50 game for EC bets where you are charged a fee (Green 0) once in a while to have fun. That's what Roulette is. If you want better odds then play BlackJack or some game where skill makes a big difference.
There is NO skill level in Roulette - you put down your bet and you win or lose.
Folks you are just wasting your time - just have fun gambling, get free drinks, and watch others go nuts gambling - that's what I do............
Some casinos do cheat:
*DOCUMENTED* PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/*documented*-proof-of-cheating-rng-software/)
Quote from: VLS on February 16, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Some casinos do cheat:
*DOCUMENTED* PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/*documented*-proof-of-cheating-rng-software/)
Others have offered this same link as some kind of proof - this is a UFO website - crazy.
The link they give nolinks://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/nolinks://nolinks.start-your-casino.com/ (nolinks://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/nolinks://nolinks.start-your-casino.com/) never works for me and is part of a sales pitch like I've asked for before:
Show me a link from any known news outlet like ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.
Basing proof from a UFO website is just funny, and sad at the same time. I will admit there are phony software Roulette tables sold as aids for con artists to create a phony track record - the RNG is bogus as is the odds tables.
This has NOTHING to do with casinos - just con artists selling Roulette systems.
This is what some of you believe in?............
You may want to use a proxy of some sort. It is loading OK here in Venezuela right now:
[attachthumb=#]
Sadly, news outlets do not pick up on these histories because we are kind of a "fringe" scene here and the accepted is casinos don't cheat because they don't need to (which is right to say) yet this type of scheme is specially appealing to a casino startup.
Think a bit you are the one setting a new online casino, slots and RNG games only. No live games.
You have a way to guarantee your casino software will get you a fixed % and it is a 0%, no risk at all venture, with only the possibility to make you money.
OR you leave the possibility open to a wealthy punter (I.e. a "whale") hitting you big time and wiping your bank account to send you straight to the poor house.
Some of the people setting up their casino venture may be tempted to removing the possibility of him and his family being wiped to the poor house. In just telling this possibility shouldn't be scrapped entirely. There is a short-term risk when being the bank, while the house edge guarantees long-term profits casinos do experience variance in short term trams, and unit size for some lucky winning punters may be large, and can dent a start-up's limited budget.
Did you read the post where Steven from CelticCasino mentioned the guys offering them cheating software? There are nasty people creating and running those cheating softwares.
Well, not count it at my single personal opinion, count Steven's as well as he experienced an offer.
In the end every person is free to do as he/she pleases.
I'll just be wary of betting at non-reputable casinos. Understanding reputation as a long history of payments, non-rogue attitude towards punters and having been for several years in the business.
And relax a bit mate, I'm not the enemy here.
Regards!
Victor
The post (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/*documented*-proof-of-cheating-rng-software/msg15531/#msg15531) I'm referring to from Steven is:
[attachimg=#]
Perhaps we are wrong, but it is only common sense not to play on start-up ventures from less than a year.
Regards and just wanting to help here.
I thought everyone knew this but I'll say it again:
100% of the software/systems/techniques for sale that claim to "beat Roulette" are phony - 100%, no exceptions.
All of them cheat with their "proof" - if they show you a YouTube with their "system" winning, that Roulette table is one of the rigged ones - they can be made to look like ANY casino in existence.
The crooks who sell these systems buy the bogus casino and pay big bucks and then get to screw around with the odds table and the wheel (RNG).
All of them.
That's why you need to see a LIVE TV Roulette wheel spinning from a known online casino and watch any demo there.
Believe it or not the world is full of folks who will screw you for a few bucks.........
P.S.
The other way they cheat is to play dozens of sessions and film each one of them. Eventually one will win and that's all you see on YouTube as "proof".
If anyone had a system that worked it would NOT be for sale at any price - the author would spend 24/7 online and at B&M casinos - all day long - his wife would be there, his kids, all the in-laws, everyone that he could trust NOT to release the system.
Let's get real here folks..........
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 11:51:47 AM
I thought everyone knew this but I'll say it again:
100% of the software/systems/techniques for sale that claim to "beat Roulette" are phony - 100%, no exceptions.
All of them cheat with their "proof" - if they show you a YouTube with their "system" winning, that Roulette table is one of the rigged ones - they can be made to look like ANY casino in existence.
The crooks who sell these systems buy the bogus casino and pay big bucks and then get to screw around with the odds table and the wheel (RNG).
All of them.
That's why you need to see a LIVE TV Roulette wheel spinning from a known online casino and watch any demo there.
Believe it or not the world is full of folks who will screw you for a few bucks.........
P.S.
The other way they cheat is to play dozens of sessions and film each one of them. Eventually one will win and that's all you see on YouTube as "proof".
If anyone had a system that worked it would NOT be for sale at any price - the author would spend 24/7 online and at B&M casinos - all day long - his wife would be there, his kids, all the in-laws, everyone that he could trust NOT to release the system.
Let's get real here folks..........
Ok dear Maui, thanks for reminding us.
Cheers!
Quote from: VLS on February 16, 2011, 12:01:52 PM
Ok dear Maui, thanks for reminding us.
Cheers!
You ought to run a poll and ask some questions about the belief structure of the folks here:
Q1: Out of all the Roulette systems for sale how many can double your money in 2 hrs of play?
A1: More than 100
A2: 50 - 100
A3: 25 - 50
A4: Less than 25
A5: None of the above
Q2: Finding patterns in past spins of the Roulette wheel is:
A1: You need to be a mathematician to do it
A2: Not that hard - many do it all the time
A3: Hard but there are systems for sale that will help you
A4: Only a hand full can do this with years of training
A5: None of the above
Q3: How many folks here, at this chat room, make a tidy sum of money playing Roulette online?
A1: 100+
A2: More than 50 but not 100
A3: More than 25 but 50 is way too many
A4: 10 or less
A5: None of the above
I could come up with more and I think it would be a hoot to see the results..........(Don't allow folks to see the results until the poll closes)
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 12:20:03 PM
I could come up with more and I think it would be a hoot to see the results..........(Don't allow folks to see the results until the poll closes)
By all means feel free to do the poll!
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/gambling-and-roulette-related/?action=post;poll (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/gambling-and-roulette-related/?action=post;poll)
Cheers!
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 15, 2011, 06:08:28 PM
I keep asking why a casino needs to cheat?
Why do a lot gamblers keep gambling after a win?...why do a lot of druglords keep selling drugs if they have millions and millions on the bank? Why do banks and insurrancecompanies steal money from hard working people? Why do most churches 'steal' money from their followers?
In every corner were money is found there is cheating....do you really think in all erea's they are cheating accept the casino's?
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 15, 2011, 06:08:28 PM
Who would do the cheating? Management? Why would they risk prison over a few bucks for a company?
To me it sounds like a perfect way to cheat. Because how in heavens name can you prove the cheating? And besides that see what 'proof' i put up here and people still like to tell it's fair instead of trying the evidence even if they have no drop of evidence themself. Why?...maby that has something to do with seeing ufo's? Didn't you say something to me about seeing ufo's? But aren't you the one who believes in something without any proof at all? Trust me i don't wanna attack you or anything but my proof and the proof of many others is maby not so impressive but at least it is something. And were mostly gamblers here so i think most will agree that something beats your nothing.
Anyhow.....I ask you again...please try it for yourselff.
Rng is a piece of software.....a (online) slotmachine can be put in different levels of payout....say level 1 is paying a lot and level 5 is paying little...why not the same kind of system for rng? And if a gamming commisson checks the software maby they just see that at that moment the software is on level 1. And as soon as Elvis has left the building they put it back to level 5...who knows? Who can proof it? It's software...you can do anything with it. That's why i think it's so important to check it for yourself...and see it with your own eyes.
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 15, 2011, 06:08:28 PM
They are all parts of Fortune 500 companies in this country and probably large corporations overseas - they make a fortune without cheating.
Since no one has come forward with any credible links on this subject we have to conclude that casinos don't cheat.
If you believe they do then don't gamble - take up another hobby.
Again you blow things out of proportion...and make it way to black and white.
I talked about rng...not casino's m8. And there's proof enough.
The proof i gave is proof seen by my own eyes...but let's forget about eyes for a second...and start talking brains....think about things like why can you start betting with 1c at some rng? And why are most table limits for rng lower then normal roulette? In my mind purely for progressive betting and for all those people with 'systems'. Because that's where the casino's gets the most profit from....people with 'systems'. They make way less money from people who goes to casino's for a great night out and spend 100 euro. Those people only cost money after all the free drinks and food etc.
If i was a betting man...and i am...i would bet that most people who play rng are people with a 'system'.
And in my mind rng is purely programmed for people with 'systems'....that's the only reason you see 20 systems/colours/combinations/patterns on the hour every hour.....and that is why some people see a 'system' (ufo). So i do understand why people are trying to protect the randomness of rng like a mother would protect her child....but trust me all those way to obvious patterns are just like teasers at a slotmachine....things like bar bar cherry 4 times an hour. Rng is software and it reacts on your betting and bankroll...it has nothing to do with random number generating..
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 15, 2011, 06:08:28 PM
To have no evidence and still assume casinos cheat is lunacy - you simply arrive at the same conclusion - don't gamble.....
You keep telling no evidence.....but if i hit you hard on the head with a spoon and say 'there is no spoon'...do you believe me or the pain on your head?.....again try the evidence....if you don't believe your own eyes then please tell me what would be evidence for you?
Quote from: harald on February 16, 2011, 12:32:24 PM
Why do a lot gamblers keep gambling after a win?...why do a lot of druglords keep selling drugs if they have millions and millions on the bank? Why do banks and insurrancecompanies steal money from hard working people? Why do most churches 'steal' money from their followers?
In every corner were money is found there is cheating....do you really think in all erea's they are cheating accept the casino's?
To me it sounds like a perfect way to cheat. Because how in heavens name can you prove the cheating? And besides that see what 'proof' I put up here and people still like to tell it's fair instead of trying the evidence even if they have no drop of evidence themself. Why?...maby that has something to do with seeing ufo's? Didn't you say something to me about seeing ufo's? But aren't you the one who believes in something without any proof at all? Trust me I don't wanna attack you or anything but my proof and the proof of many others is maby not so impressive but at least it is something. And were mostly gamblers here so I think most will agree that something beats your nothing.
Anyhow.....I ask you again...please try it for yourselff.
Rng is a piece of software.....a (online) slotmachine can be put in different levels of payout....say level 1 is paying a lot and level 5 is paying little...why not the same kind of system for rng? And if a gamming commisson checks the software maby they just see that at that moment the software is on level 1. And as soon as Elvis has left the building they put it back to level 5...who knows? Who can proof it? It's software...you can do anything with it. That's why I think it's so important to check it for yourself...and see it with your own eyes.
Again you blow things out of proportion...and make it way to black and white.
I talked about rng...not casino's m8. And there's proof enough.
The proof I gave is proof seen by my own eyes...but let's forget about eyes for a second...and start talking brains....think about things like why can you start betting with 1c at some rng? And why are most table limits for rng lower then normal roulette? In my mind purely for progressive betting and for all those people with 'systems'. Because that's where the casino's gets the most profit from....people with 'systems'. They make way less money from people who goes to casino's for a great night out and spend 100 euro. Those people only cost money after all the free drinks and food etc.
If I was a betting man...and I am...I would bet that most people who play rng are people with a 'system'.
And in my mind rng is purely programmed for people with 'systems'....that's the only reason you see 20 systems/colours/combinations/patterns on the hour every hour.....and that is why some people see a 'system' (ufo). So I do understand why people are trying to protect the randomness of rng like a mother would protect her child....but trust me all those way to obvious patterns are just like teasers at a slotmachine....things like bar bar cherry 4 times an hour. Rng is software and it reacts on your betting and bankroll...it has nothing to do with random number generating..
You keep telling no evidence.....but if I hit you hard on the head with a spoon and say 'there is no spoon'...do you believe me or the pain on your head?.....again try the evidence....if you don't believe your own eyes then please tell me what would be evidence for you?
I can't debate conspiracy theories - I've found that out over the years.
If you believe there are dark forces at work in the gaming industry I sure won't be able to convince you otherwise.
Believe what you will, me I'm assuming that there are enough controls in B&M casinos to prevent cheating by the casinos.
Online is another matter - the casinos are located in remote parts of the world and cheating could be going on and I'd have no way to determine it except to read about it in the newspapers.
Probably everyone who has had a streak of bad luck believes that evil forces are conspiring against them - I've felt that way a few times. But until proof is offered otherwise I'm going to assume that the house advantage is more than enough to make zillions as a casino....
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 15, 2011, 04:57:24 PM
Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.
How about those 'live wheels' were you see a wheel and after you bet the wheel is gone and instead you see a big blue screen with big red letters 'no more bets'....and then you see the wheel again :)
After i stop playing Random Number Riggedmachines i started playing on live wheels....didn't found a clue so far that this is rigged...allthough sometimes crazy things happen i never seen on a real wheel....anyhow i do think 1 thing is kinda strange....at all casino's i play live wheel the tables with a min of 1euro are always shown complete in your screen the whole time......
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2F2vbl8wo.jpg&hash=170e29b43943cd425d8237c043ac3e760aee177c)
.....the tables with 10c min, the tables i play, always start complete....but then the camera zooms in and you see things like this.....
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi53.tinypic.com%2Fs1l35h.jpg&hash=1815cc453ec37c654eca55e2b419f1b475799259)
after she spins you see this screen until the number comes up....
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2F2eb8xts.jpg&hash=d55532a58ab37bc16a9b3c58cefc49deb49fb114)
there's always a part of the wheel you don't see....and you only see the ball half a spin most of the times.
Proofs nothing ofcourse but like i said i think it's strange....why not all the same and a complete view all the time like the 1euro table?
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 01:08:31 PM
I can't debate conspiracy theories - I've found that out over the years.
If you believe there are dark forces at work in the gaming industry I sure won't be able to convince you otherwise.
Believe what you will, me I'm assuming that there are enough controls in B&M casinos to prevent cheating by the casinos.
Online is another matter - the casinos are located in remote parts of the world and cheating could be going on and I'd have no way to determine it except to read about it in the newspapers.
Probably everyone who has had a streak of bad luck believes that evil forces are conspiring against them - I've felt that way a few times. But until proof is offered otherwise I'm going to assume that the house advantage is more than enough to make zillions as a casino....
Or my english is realy very bad or you just don't read.
No matter what you just don't want to see evidence and are not open for reality...people talk to you but you have your fingers in your ears and yel 'lalalalalala i can't hear you'.......there's multiple proof it's ketchup but you still believe the statue of Maria is bleeding....hey fine by me...like i said i have nothing to loose at what i say...you can only loose with what your saying.
Anyhow m8 it's easy, and childish, to point a finger at someone else for things you do yourself....so just keep doing that and proof your that kind of person....let's say end of conversation?
Quote from: harald on February 16, 2011, 03:49:12 PM
Or my english is realy very bad or you just don't read.
No matter what you just don't want to see evidence and are not open for reality...people talk to you but you have your fingers in your ears and yel 'lalalalalala I can't hear you'.......there's multiple proof it's ketchup but you still believe the statue of Maria is bleeding....hey fine by me...like I said I have nothing to lose at what I say...you can only lose with what your saying.
Anyhow m8 it's easy, and childish, to point a finger at someone else for things you do yourself....so just keep doing that and proof your that kind of person....let's say end of conversation?
Well this thread is about RNGs not being random.
I agree that there are con artist programmers and scammers selling Roulette systems that don't work because they are based on a corrupted Roulette wheel casino that scammers use. No doubt about it - I've seen these scams.
So I agree that ANY Roulette system for sale that uses "proof" of a spinning wheel and real-time bets placed are phony - they are on YouTube too.
But that doesn't mean that any American B&M casino cheats - there is no proof of this.
Online casinos might be using RNGs that are not random too - I have no way to verify them.
Online casinos that use a live Roulette wheel are probably ok, hard to cheat that way.
Now if folks are saying that RNGs are NOT random then the burden of proof is upon them to demonstrate this, not for me to prove the opposite....
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 03:58:31 PM
Well this thread is about RNGs not being random.
Look at this: Betvoyager's Randomness Control feature (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/betvoyager's-randomness-control-feature/).
They pre-publish the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. There is no real fast way to cheat this process.
Quote"A cryptographic hash function is a computer program which takes a block of data (for example, a list of roulette spins) as input and produces something called a hash value, which is a meaningless string of digits and numbers which might look like this:
e3b0c44298fc1c149afbf4c8996fb92427ae41e4649b934ca495991b7852b855
It doesn't matter how long the "input" is (it could be 2 spins or 50) the length of the output hash is always the same, and, most importantly, the same input will always produce the same hash (this is the key to why hash functions are used for security purposes)."
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 04:27:26 PM
Look at this: Betvoyager's Randomness Control feature (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/betvoyager's-randomness-control-feature/).
They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process.
What's better:
1) A RNG that generates 10+ numbers, gets a hash total and publishes that total and then sends the 10 spins to the programmer for him to use as he wishes
2) A RNG that generates numbers millions of times a second and when a button is pressed the RNG stops and that's the number - no hash no alerting the programmer
Personally I'll take #2
@gizmo
"They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process."
this is a lie, they may do it this way but its for there protection not yours.
if they can see the 10 numbers and see a big bet being played and it will put them into bankrupt, then i think they will change that number.
dont be nieve gizmo, its not for you.
i would rather have true random where no one knows the outcome
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 04:32:26 PM
What's better:
1) A RNG that generates 10+ numbers, gets a hash total and publishes that total and then sends the 10 spins to the programmer for him to use as he wishes
2) A RNG that generates numbers millions of times a second and when a button is pressed the RNG stops and that's the number - no hash no alerting the programmer
Personally I'll take #2
How about 1 & 2 combined. The RNG generates millions per second, takes the last ten spins, publishes the hash of them on the casino play window, counts down those ten spins as they happen then publishes ten new ones. In this way the casino is proving that it has not tampered with spin results after analyzing player's bets. It's a form of self regulation that proves that no cheating is taking place. It's still using a proper form of RNG. It's like confirming a live wheel. All you do is hash the same ten spins and compare the hash strings. This is even programmer proof.
Quote from: darrynf on February 16, 2011, 04:38:56 PM
@gizmo
"They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process."
this is a lie, they may do it this way but its for there protection not yours.
if they can see the 10 numbers and see a big bet being played and it will put them into bankrupt, then I think they will change that number.
dont be nieve gizmo, its not for you.
I would rather have true random where no one knows the outcome
Both darrynf and MauiSunset have successfully convinced me that they really lack real playing experience. That they both depend on their abilities to improvise and use sophistry to carry on their opinions here. There is no way for them to logically defend these positions they have taken here. They have imagined that casinos wouldn't want to have proof that they were not cheating. Even more interesting is the fact that they can't see what this really is. No need for name calling here. Their words spell it all out.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 04:50:51 PM
Both You and MauiSunset have successfully convinced me that they really lack real playing experience. That they both depend on their abilities to improvise and use sophistry to carry on their opinions here. There is no way for them to logically defend these positions they have taken here. They have imagined that casinos wouldn't want to have proof that they were not cheating. Even more interesting is the fact that they can't see what this really is. No need for name calling here. Their words spell it all out.
2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works.
There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none. That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV.
The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers.
Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option.
Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none. This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks.............
More sophistry... blah blah blah....
@ MauiSunset & darrynf,
I think you've misunderstood how cryptographic hash functions work. The point is that the spins are generated in advance of being given to the player, and the player can confirm this because of the hash. First X spins are generated (you can choose a value for X at Betvoyager, anything up to 60 spins). Then, the hash is generated. You can see what this hash is before you get the spins. After the spins have been shown to the player, one at a time (even though they have already all been generated in advance), the player is able to calculate the hash independently. If there is a difference in hashes, it means one or more of the spins has been changed "en route", as it were.
If there is no difference in hashes, this gives a 100% guarantee that the outcomes were not changed during betting.
But, as far as I'm aware, no online casino other than Betvoyager has this feature.
"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."
Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.
"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none. That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."
Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.
"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."
Not anymore Bozo
"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."
Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.
"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none. This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.
Thanks Bayes, and for this thread too.
You can learn about cryptographic hash functions here:
nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function (nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function)
The algorithm for generating the hash (the SHA-256) is the required secure hash algorithm for use in U.S. Federal applications, including use by other cryptographic algorithms and protocols, for the protection of sensitive unclassified information. See the National Institute of Standards and Technology for details. It's also in the public domain, so you can even write your own in the programming language of your choice.
IMO, use of this should be standard in all online casinos offering RNG games. ;)
Quote from: Bayes on February 16, 2011, 05:05:41 PM
@ MauiSunset & darrynf,
I think you've misunderstood how cryptographic hash functions work. The point is that the spins are generated in advance of being given to the player, and the player can confirm this because of the hash. First X spins are generated (you can choose a value for X at Betvoyager, anything up to 60 spins). Then, the hash is generated. You can see what this hash is before you get the spins. After the spins have been shown to the player, one at a time (even though they have already all been generated in advance), the player is able to calculate the hash independently. If there is a difference in hashes, it means one or more of the spins has been changed "en route", as it were.
If there is no difference in hashes, this gives a 100% guarantee that the outcomes were not changed during betting.
But, as far as I'm aware, no online casino other than Betvoyager has this feature.
OK, for those of you who can't get enough RNGs here's a great link: nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml (nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml)
That algorithm is used by Java, which is on your PC, and can be used in casino games.
numberi+1 = (a * numberi + c) mod m
Basically you take a "seed" number, like 7846236485 and multiply and divide and you get a number which looks random to us mere mortals. In reality it is not a true random number.
Let's say that we get a number 0 - 36 (Mod 37) which is our European Roulette wheel. You then put it back in and get another number between 0 and 36 and so on and so on.
Let's say you get 10 of them: 7 12 0 29 4 36 22 14 9 10 and you add them up = 143 this is called the hash number.
However the same numbers in any order will give you 143 for a simple hash number, e.g. 12 0 7 29 9 10 14 22 36 gives 143 too.
All the simple hash number gives us is those 10 numbers and if a casino wants to cheat they can easily send the numbers out in any order they want. You can take the 10 numbers and reverse them and add them together and so on but there is always a way to screw around with the sequence.
Now a more complex hash function can account for the placement, like 1*7 + 2*12 + 3*0... but even this hash number can be screwed around with.
Honestly, if you guys are worried about RNGs I don't want to bring up the idea of your cell phone sending your GPS location to the authorities 24/7.....
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 05:09:32 PM
"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."
Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.
"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none. That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."
Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.
"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."
Not anymore Bozo
"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."
Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.
"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none. This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.
What's your point?
There are no dark, sinister, forces out to mess around with RNGs at B&M casinos - online casinos I agree can be manipulated (except live TV) so just don't use them.
Problem solved - don't gamble online without live broadcast of a mechanical device that picks the winner.
Honestly, what's the problem?
More sophistry from the recreational loser.
Dig this Java master. You use the mod operator to perform modular arithmetic. You use the random function to get a random number from a specified range like random(37). If you use the mod operator it won't produce a random number from the RNG you think you are talking about. Example: 12 mod 4 -- evaluates to zero, 23 mod 5 -- evaluates to 3 (23 div 5 is 4, with 3 left over)
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 06:08:47 PM
OK, for those of you who can't get enough RNGs here's a great link: nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml (nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml)
That algorithm is used by Java, which is on your PC, and can be used in casino games.
numberi+1 = (a * numberi + c) mod m
Basically you take a "seed" number, like 7846236485 and multiply and divide and you get a number which looks random to us mere mortals. In reality it is not a true random number.
Let's say that we get a number 0 - 36 (Mod 37) which is our European Roulette wheel. You then put it back in and get another number between 0 and 36 and so on and so on.
Let's say you get 10 of them: 7 12 0 29 4 36 22 14 9 10 and you add them up = 143 this is called the hash number.
However the same numbers in any order will give you 143 for a simple hash number, e.g. 12 0 7 29 9 10 14 22 36 gives 143 too.
All the simple hash number gives us is those 10 numbers and if a casino wants to cheat they can easily send the numbers out in any order they want. You can take the 10 numbers and reverse them and add them together and so on but there is always a way to screw around with the sequence.
Now a more complex hash function can account for the placement, like 1*7 + 2*12 + 3*0... but even this hash number can be screwed around with.
Honestly, if you guys are worried about RNGs I don't want to bring up the idea of your cell phone sending your GPS location to the authorities 24/7.....
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 06:36:38 PM
More sophistry from the recreational loser.
Dig this Java master. You use the mod operator to perform modular arithmetic. You use the random function to get a random number from a specified range like random(37). If you use the mod operator it won't produce a random number from the RNG you think you are talking about. Example: 12 mod 4 -- evaluates to zero, 23 mod 5 -- evaluates to 3 (23 div 5 is 4, with 3 left over)
Well, I've reached the point I'm going to have to charge consulting fees to continue this.....
All this means nothing to having a good time gambling.
If you worry about RNGs you are wasting time and should be spending time on something that might actually help you gamble - like money management in Roulette.
Modern RNG's on your computer use a process to generate a unique random seed. Many computers do this by selecting a new, unique random seed every time the program using them is started up. Now that that occurs it now will generate random numbers up to 500,000 decisions without beginning to repeat the same numbers in the same sequence. Because of this level of accuracy casinos have algorithms that select new random seeds long before reaching that 500,000 point. I know this because a well known hack was run against casino RNGs a few years ago. They used a computer to find the point in the sequence and then played against it knowing the next outcomes. So now almost all casino machines use 100 to 1,000's of decisions in advanced, then they deliberately change the random seed and do it again. When you sit in front of a casino gaming machine the outcomes are already set for several hours ahead. That's directly from the gaming control inspectors. It's to prevent hacking the RNG.
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 06:44:40 PM
All this means nothing to having a good time gambling.
Losing is such great fun.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 06:49:07 PM
Modern RNG's on your computer use a process to generate a unique random seed. Many computers do this by selecting a new, unique random seed every time the program using them is started up. Now that that occurs it now will generate random numbers up to 500,000 decisions without beginning to repeat the same numbers in the same sequence. Because of this level of accuracy casinos have algorithms that select new random seeds long before reaching that 500,000 point. I know this because a well known hack was run against casino RNGs a few years ago. They used a computer to find the point in the sequence and then played against it knowing the next outcomes. So now almost all casino machines use 100 to 1,000's of decisions in advanced, then they deliberately change the random seed and do it again. When you sit in front of a casino gaming machine the outcomes are already set for several hours ahead. That's directly from the gaming control inspectors. It's to prevent hacking the RNG.
Military grade RNGs have an old fashioned FM radio chip that listens for white noise as the seed - advanced RNGs that have access to the internet simply get the current time for the seed.
As far as I know RNGs run constantly at casinos, they start the instant the computer is activated and cycle until the computer is turned off - they multi-task and thus each event interrupt of a button gets a random number that can't be forecasted.
Some games, like BlackJack have to have a set of random numbers generated in order to keep track of so many cards, but Roulette is not like that nor slot machines.
Generating random numbers in advance is a real bad idea to me - I mean really bad.....
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 06:59:32 PM
Military grade RNGs have an old fashioned FM radio chip that listens for white noise as the seed - advanced RNGs that have access to the internet simply get the current time for the seed.
More assumptions? Unix time, or POSIX time is basically the computer's system time. The computer uses it to make up a new random seed. There is no need to connect to the internet. And as I said, they discovered a hack at 500,000 numbers selected. It begins to repeat. That's in all modern computers. Changing the random seed is the fix.
QuoteAs far as I know RNGs run constantly at casinos, they start the instant the computer is activated and cycle until the computer is turned off - they multi-task and thus each event interrupt of a button gets a random number that can't be forecasted.
Look, that's pre hacked thinking. They know better now. They multi task like you describe but they also defeat ever producing a repeating sequence of numbers. It's new thinking. Try to keep up.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 07:18:22 PM
More assumptions? Unix time, or POSIX time is basically the computer's system time. The computer uses it to make up a new random seed. There is no need to connect to the internet. And as I said, they discovered a hack at 500,000 numbers selected. It begins to repeat. That's in all modern computers. Changing the random seed is the fix.
Look, that's pre hacked thinking. They no better now. They multi task like you describe but they also defeat ever producing a repeating sequence of numbers. It's new thinking. Try to keep up.
I'm trying to get a nugget of wisdom out of this - so far I'm not getting far.
Who cares about all of this? If you do, then don't gamble.
Folks, RNGs are used in casino games all the time and there has never been a news story, from other than UFO fanatics, about cheating.
Casinos in Vegas and around the country don't cheat with a RNG - there is no reason to.
Internet casinos in Bulgaria probably do cheat with bogus RNGs - don't use them except for entertainment purposes. Use a live TV feed of a mechanical Roulette wheel instead.
Q.E.D.
Guys.....Lets please 'cool it' a small bit with ripping on each other. If you dont like a certain something posted, dont respond, very easy to do.
Ken
Context, that's what this is about. The thread is about the accuracy of the RNG's being random. Now that could be because they are using bad simulations of randomness or it's because something is being manipulated intentionally to produce a deliberate disadvantage beyond the already well known house's advantage. This new hash function & pre publishing is a landmark breakthrough to prevent tampering or manipulation by cheating casinos. Now I admit that this applies to on-line casinos almost entirely. But this is a fix that should make on-line gambling far more regulated. Many people here are not just gambling in the USA. I'm suggesting that during this thread's discussion Bayes brought a great addition to this topic. It's directly related to RNG cheating.
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 16, 2011, 07:24:18 PM
I'm trying to get a nugget of wisdom out of this - so far I'm not getting far.
Who cares about all of this? If you do, then don't gamble.
Folks, RNGs are used in casino games all the time and there has never been a news story, from other than UFO fanatics, about cheating.
Casinos in Vegas and around the country don't cheat with a RNG - there is no reason to.
Internet casinos in Bulgaria probably do cheat with bogus RNGs - don't use them except for entertainment purposes. Use a live TV feed of a mechanical Roulette wheel instead.
Q.E.D.
Quote from: Mr J on February 16, 2011, 07:30:32 PM
Guys.....Lets please 'cool it' a small bit with ripping on each other. If you dont like a certain something posted, dont respond, very easy to do.
Ken
Nobody is ripping on each other. We are only discussing the relevance of the thread.
maybe I dont understand what hash is, sounds like a certain weed lol
I dont need experience to know about hash, I dont care.
the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.
what good is hash on a live table, proberly nothing, gizmo you try saying I know nothing and yet you babble on about stuff that has no meaning (better word would no irrelavince) to roulette.
so what if it is true random, its still hard to beat and please dont bring your stuff about how you THINK YOU CAN BEAT ROULETTE.
i dont need to understand how it is, its just random and im doing fine with my own strategys or you ever do is put people down.
getting back on the topic, i dont think rng is random at all on a online casino.
over time from what i have seen is that it tends to even it self out, maybe this is to do with something called the law of the 3rd.
i havent read it but i think its to do with big numbers getting even over a long period.
however i think roulette tables are true random, unless they are using magnets or some how been tampered with.
I believe some casinos are cheating and some casinos are good, i havent been playing for years like some but it dosent mean i havent done my research.
i believe people are making money consistently just not many people do it.
i also dont believe just because you play roulette for years that it makes you more experience, in most cases it makes you a bigger losser cause you still think you can beat it.
and say after you do find a way to beat after 10 years then how much did you lose in that 10 years.
you can try to understand randomness (if thats what you want to call it) or patterns but it is all just from one spin.
may system has done well but i havent been able to test it due to not having spare cash to play and i need to do better money management.
no my system proper system isnt on here as it works so far and i dont think i will post it cause in a way the bets are random but not.
but im as equaly good as the next person.
Quote from: darrynf on February 16, 2011, 08:46:00 PM
maybe I dont understand what hash is, sounds like a certain weed lol
I dont need experience to know about hash, I dont care.
the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.
what good is hash on a live table, proberly nothing, gizmo you try saying I know nothing and yet you babble on about stuff that has no meaning (better word would no irrelavince) to roulette.
so what if it is true random, its still hard to beat and please dont bring your stuff about how you THINK YOU CAN BEAT ROULETTE.
I dont need to understand how it is, its just random and im doing fine with my own strategys or you ever do is put people down.
save this
some more thoughts, questions n answers about this can be found in this old thread....... :good:
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/live-roulette-casinos/if-rng-aren%27t-fixed-then-why/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/live-roulette-casinos/if-rng-aren%27t-fixed-then-why/)
@gizmo
my system would beat your system hands down any day of the week.
you do that test with maui and i will do the test as well and show that my system will wipe your so called system.
why dont you drop your big bomb and wipe roulette of the earth or is it just a pebble you are holding.
opps maybe i should play nice, my system against yours.
tired of you babbling, lets see what you are made of!
Quote from: darrynf on February 16, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
I also dont believe just because you play roulette for years that it makes you more experience, in most cases it makes you a bigger losser cause you still think you can beat it.
and say after you do find a way to beat after 10 years then how much did you lose in that 10 years.
you can try to understand randomness (if thats what you want to call it) or patterns but it is all just from one spin.
may system has done well but I havent been able to test it due to not having spare cash to play and I need to do better money management.
no my system proper system isnt on here as it works so far and I dont think I will post it cause in a way the bets are random but not.
but im as equaly good as the next person.
save this
whats with your saving gizmo.
its not going anywhere.
Quote from: darrynf on February 16, 2011, 09:34:10 PM
whats with your saving gizmo.
its not going anywhere.
I just wanted these two things saved for posterity. It's not so much deliberate sophistry as it is naiveté. I happen to know the stage you are going through. It's riddled with magical beliefs. You attempt to marginalize my use of randomness and yet you clearly have never studied it. All I ever get from you is your excuses of why you won't. It might impress others but it completely falls on its face with me. I also wanted a clear record of who it is that is throwing the rocks.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 09:57:34 PM
I just wanted these two things saved for posterity. It's not so much deliberate sophistry as it is naiveté. I happen to know the stage you are going through. It's riddled with magical beliefs. You attempt to marginalize my use of randomness and yet you clearly have never studied it. All I ever get from you is your excuses of why you won't. It might impress others but it completely falls on its face with me. I also wanted a clear record of who it is that is throwing the rocks.
this makes no sence gizmo, you are just babbling to make your self look better (well thats what you want to think).
I have never given an excuss on here about anything, however you give excusses like there is a tomorrow.
i dont believe in magic gizmo, i have what i think and you have what you think, i dont mock you for what you think but the way you talk. (maybe i have but you really anoy me).
im pretty sure i dont impress others gitmo, i have beliefes and im not going to alow a person like you to tell me what i should and what i shouldnt believe in.
funny thing is you think you are or think you know the secrit to roulette but i think you know nothing and have nothing and thats why you keep stalling, because you have nothing and you copy other people.
sometimes i think you are a kid behind a desk and other times i think you are a grumpy old man behind a desk
@gizmo
you are one person i will never respect or listen to, not because of what you say or what you think is right or wrong but because the way you are to people, knock them down if they dont agree with you.
you really are arogant, i dont care if i get kick of this forum from saying what i think about you.
i tried to have a conversation with you then you knock me cause i wouldnt agree with you, tough, not everyone agrees with you gizmo, even more so not many people like you.
i dont hassle you to impress others, its simpler then that, you are just a git.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 05:09:32 PM
"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."
Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.
"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none. That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."
Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.
"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."
Not anymore Bozo
"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."
Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.
"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none. This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.
Save this
why names gitmo, he dosent agree with you just like me
Quote from: darrynf on February 16, 2011, 08:46:00 PM
the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.
No, you haven't understood, and neither has MauiSunset. Let's start over; if an online casino wanted to cheat you, how would they go about it?
We can rule out any form of deliberate non-randomness or bias built-in to the RNG. Why? simply because it's not in the casino's interest. If there was any kind of systematic non-randomness, then players would soon catch on to this and take advantage of it, exactly the same as in a B & M casino.
Some people think that online casinos have computer programs running which analyse your play and try to figure out your system, that's why they say you should do things like not play for too long at one casino, or try to "mix things up" as much as possible. This scenario sounds absurd to me; apart from anything else, it would be expensive in terms of resources (having the code running, paying a programmer to do the coding etc). Also, supposing they do manage to find a pattern in your playing, there's no guarantee that you will continue to play this way, they would be simply guessing. It would be going to a lot of trouble for an uncertain payoff, and they already make a profit without doing it.
The easiest way to cheat would be to just wait until you have placed a bet, then give you any spin which is other than what you're betting on, agreed?
i agree with that baye,
i wasnt saying casinos cheat i was just saying that its possible.
one thing you said it would take time and money for a programmer to be there.
i think they would have alot of programmers, theyearn millions and i wouldnt underestimate what they are capalbe of doing.
i dont think they need to cheat but i think the option is there for them.
random is hard to beat anyway and i really dont see why they need to cheat but dosent mean they wont ever.
Quote from: darrynf on February 17, 2011, 05:25:11 AM
one thing you said it would take time and money for a programmer to be there.
I think they would have alot of programmers, theyearn millions and I wouldnt underestimate what they are capalbe of doing.
I dont think they need to cheat but I think the option is there for them.
Ok, let's admit that the possibility is there for them analysing your bets in the hope of cracking your betting strategy. If you were simply betting red all the time, it wouldn't take them long to discover it (there's no guarantee that you will continue to bet red, of course). But if you were betting randomly (say, by using a coin flip), there's no way for them to even make an intelligent guess what you'll bet next. The point is, in this scenario things are under
your control, not theirs.
Put that possibility to one side and think about the 3rd scenario (and the most obvious one) - that each spin is generated
after you have made your bet. In this case, you are helpless; wherever you bet, you're doomed because they can choose which spin will come up next, and so control whether you will win or not.
What the hash does is guarantee that the spin is generated not
after you bet, but
before. That being the case, you are assured that any bets you make can't make any difference to the outcome, because the outcome (next spin) has already happened. It appears that the outcome hasn't happened yet - you don't actually see the next outcome until you've made a bet, but the outcome was already there, it just hasn't been displayed in the marquee yet.
A hash is just a sequence of numbers and letters which is generated by a computer program. Betvoyager uses something called the SHA-256 algorithm to produce a hash. For a fixed sequence of text, the algorithm will always generate the same hash. For example, if you input the number 10, the hash will be:
4a44dc15364204a80fe80e9039455cc1608281820fe2b24f1e5233ade6af1dd5
Another property is that you cannot take a given hash and work out what the input was, so there is no way to know that the number 10 generated this hash. However, if the input was not 10, but say 17, the hash would be completely different.
These algorithms are used for things like keeping passwords secure, and in fact the security of the internet depends on this technology. This particular algorithm is very secure, and there have been no known instances of it ever being "cracked".
Another use of this type of algorithm is to ensure that a message that you send is not corrupted en route. First, input the message into the hash algorithm. The hash is generated. Now when your message is received you can know that it hasn't been intercepted and changed if when it arrives, you run the hash algorithm again on the message and it produces the exact same hash. If the message had been changed (even very slightly, say by removing one letter or number) the hash would be completely different.
This is the principle used by Betvoyager. Instead of a message, the input is a sequence of roulette numbers (or maybe just 1). When you play at Betvoyager, you have the option of seeing what the hash is before you play any spins, then, when the spin has appeared, you can input the number into the hash algorithm and check that the same hash is generated. If it is (and it always is), you have a 100% guarantee that the numbers were generated
before you made your bets, and therefore there was no cheating by giving you spins which would make you lose.
You can see a demo of how to use it here:
nolinks://nolinks.betvoyager.com/demo/roulette.htm (nolinks://nolinks.betvoyager.com/demo/roulette.htm)
By the way, if you're thinking that they can still be cheating because both hashes are generated by Betvoyager, there are sites that will allow you to input text and generate the hash, so you can verify independently that the hash is the same, without relying on the honesty of Betvoyager.
Just who would authorize this cheating at a B&M casino?
Take Vegas, the casinos on "the strip" are all owned by Fortune 500 companies - who authorizes all this cheating?
The CEO/COO/GM of the Fortune 500 company? What's in it for him? Does the casino send an armored truck to the Fortune 500 company located thousands of miles away?
Ok, if it isn't the CEO of the Fortune 500 company is it the GM of the casino? Does an armored car visit his house each week with the spoils of the evil RNGs?
CPAs audit all the casinos - where do the profits from all the cheating go, under "Corrupt RNGs in casino"?
Come on guys - this is conspiracy theory stuff - there is no way to make any money illegally from corrupt RNGs in the casino.
This is just "crazy talk" from conspiracy kooks that see evil plots against them when they lose at Roulette - it was the corrupt RNGs doing it.
Give me a break...........
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 17, 2011, 08:56:20 AM
This is just "crazy talk" from conspiracy kooks that see evil plots against them when they lose at Roulette - it was the corrupt RNGs doing it.
The online casinos have nearly no regulation or governing body that actually checks every line of source code for their online table games. This is not true of B&M casinos here in the USA. If there is ever going to be access by American players it will need this kind of tampering protection. Do you really think the best advice is to play an actual live wheel online to protect the fairness of the process? Or how about your own advice to play in B&M casinos only. That's just an excuse also isn't it? Perhaps your own advice is to selectively discern your own convenient conspiracy and act according to that. You are now conflicted based on real world issues and this topic.
For the first time it is now possible to trust the online casinos, if they were to adapt this technique that is. It really comes down to that old axiom "the old bottom line." With this players can bet knowing that no tampering has taken place. They can play as long as they want to. They can bet on what they want to without the need to mask their technique. I think you are attempting to dodge the issue by the use of deflection. It's a kind of kookiness all its own.
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 17, 2011, 12:58:06 PM
The online casinos have nearly no regulation or governing body that actually checks every line of source code for their online table games. This is not true of B&M casinos here in the USA. If there is ever going to be access by American players it will need this kind of tampering protection. Do you really think the best advice is to play an actual live wheel online to protect the fairness of the process? Or how about your own advice to play in B&M casinos only. That's just an excuse also isn't it? Perhaps your own advice is to selectively discern your own convenient conspiracy and act according to that. You are now conflicted based on real world issues and this topic.
For the first time it is now possible to trust the online casinos, if they were to adapt this technique that is. It really comes down to that old axiom "the old bottom line." With this players can bet knowing that no tampering has taken place. They can play as long as they want to. They can bet on what they want to without the need to mask their technique. I think you are attempting to dodge the issue by the use of deflection. It's a kind of kookiness all its own.
That's the great thing about using a live internet broadcast of a spinning wheel - 100% foolproof.
(I guess the casino could prerecord the spins and then edit and come up with any sequence they want - OMG)
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 17, 2011, 01:02:59 PM
That's the great thing about using a live internet broadcast of a spinning wheel - 100% foolproof.
(I guess the casino could prerecord the spins and then edit and come up with any sequence they want - OMG)
The casinos that broadcast live wheels publish the actuals too. That way witnesses at the B&M casino can confirm the sequences that went out over the internet. They would have been busted a long time ago if they had tampered with the live results. You are still deflecting, driving along in your "convertible Dodge."
Don't you think that discussing issues is almost as much entertaining as losing is when you gamble?
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 17, 2011, 01:16:57 PM
The casinos that broadcast live wheels publish the actuals too. That way witnesses at the B&M casino can confirm the sequences that went out over the internet. They would have been busted a long time ago if they had tampered with the live results. You are still deflecting, driving along in your "convertible Dodge."
Don't you think that discussing issues is almost as much entertaining as losing is when you gamble?
See, I've NEVER had a losing Roulette session in Vegas - NEVER!
I play slow enough and order enough drinks that my 1 hour break from BlackJack puts me way ahead of the price of the drinks.
So as far as I'm concerned folks have a lot of proving to do to out do my Roulette system of randomly betting Red or Black s...l...o...w...l...y and getting the drinks as fast as I can.
Sure it would be nice to actually put some money into my pockets instead of booze in my tummy but that's why I'm here.
So far no luck.....
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 17, 2011, 01:02:59 PM
That's the great thing about using a live internet broadcast of a spinning wheel - 100% foolproof.
Why is it 100% foolproof? If you're paranoid enough, you can easily imagine that the wheel has hidden magnets which are triggered so that the ball lands on a number away from where the highest stakes are concentrated.
Quote(I guess the casino could prerecord the spins and then edit and come up with any sequence they want - OMG)
Yes, people have claimed this on forums. In fact, there was a guy called Spike who accused Dublinbet of cheating, even though they are a real B & M casino with a live feed. ::)
It's largely a matter of perception, people would rather play on a live wheel than an RNG, even if it did have the cryptographic hash, although in reality there's less chance of being cheated by the latter.
Quote from: MauiSunset on February 17, 2011, 01:27:23 PM
See, I've NEVER had a losing Roulette session in Vegas - NEVER!
Prove it! :)
Quote from: Bayes on February 17, 2011, 01:49:32 PM
Prove it! :)
I pride myself on coordination and ordering 2 sets of 2 drinks (one for my friend stuck in the bathroom) plus an up-front tip, make me a Margarita Ninja who is fearless at the Roulette tables.
But you'll just have to take my word for it....
Quote from: Gizmotron on February 16, 2011, 07:40:45 PM
Nobody is ripping on each other. We are only discussing the relevance of the thread.
Well, I said there is a small amount of insulting going on and thats what matters.
Ken
cheers bayes,
now i understand better, might play there one day.
you could look at v.b
visual ballistics
Quote from: Mr J on February 16, 2011, 07:30:32 PM
Guys.....Lets please 'cool it' a small bit with ripping on each other. If you dont like a certain something posted, dont respond, very easy to do.
Ken
Amen to that.
Like i said with this topic i just wanted to warn others for rng's.