The short answer is - "when it makes a profit". :D
Ok, but there is a simple calculation you can do on your results which can help tell you if your profits are due to luck or something more, and can indicate that more testing is needed, whether a method is "showing promise" or should be binned, and also gives a standard way of comparing the merits of methods which may be betting on different outcomes (for example, a single number system and a dozens system). Note that this is covered briefly in Kon-Fu-Sed's excellent probability tutorial, but it's so important that it deserves more emphasis and a fuller explanation.
Introducing the "z-score"The calculation generates a number called the "z-score", which tells you how far away your actual results are from what you would expect to get (on average) if you were simply betting randomly for the same number of decisions. The higher the score is, the lower the chance that your results are due to random variability, or "luck".
In the statistical literature, there are 3 z-score values which are commonly quoted. For our purposes they can be expressed as the following:
z-score of 1.0 - there is a 16% chance that your results are due to luck.z-score of 2.0 - there is a 2.3% chance that your results are due to luck.z-score of 3.0 - there is a 0.13% chance that your results are due to luck.Scores higher than 3.0 mean that it's highly unlikely that luck is involved at all. If you have a true advantage the score will (and must) continue to rise as you get more results.
To calculate the z-score for your system you need 3 pieces of data:
- The number of placed bets. It's important that these are actual bets - you don't count any "virtual" bets.
- The number of wins (or hits).
- The probability of a win on a single outcome. e.g. if you're betting 5 numbers, the probability is 5/37, if dozens it's 12/37, two columns is 24/37 etc.
Note that this measurement is only valid for bet selections - it doesn't apply to systems using a progression.This isn't really a problem because you can still get the z-score by just counting the number of wins without taking account of the actual profit (In fact you could argue that finding the z-score is
more important for those systems which
do use a progression, precisely because a progression can easily give the illusion that a method has merit, whereas in all probability you have no advantage at all, and are surviving on borrowed time...). For example, if you were using a 4 step grand martingale of 1,3,6,12 on R/B then after a series of wins and losses like this:
LLLWLLWLWLLLWLLLWLWLLWWW
You would have made +16u, but the number of wins is 9 and the number of placed bets is 24.
Similarly if you were betting on 2 numbers you might get a series like this:
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLL
If using a progression you may well be in profit at this point by an amount depending on the progression, but for the purpose of calculating the z-score all you need to know is that the number of wins is 2, and the number of placed bets is 45.
As such, the z-score can be regarded as a "figure of merit" for bet selections. Mathematically, there is no way to win consistently using a progression alone. The bet selection is what's important. If you can win flat betting, then you can boost profits with progressions, but you can't use a progression to paper over the cracks of a poor bet selection. This happens to also be my opinion, but not everyone will agree. Regardless though, even the most hardened progression players are looking to shorten those losing runs, so it makes sense to pay at least some attention to bet selection.
Note that the score can come out
negative. What does this mean? Well, it depends, because if the score is between -3.0 and +3.0 then you are within the accepted interval governed by chance. In other words, if your score is consistently between these two numbers, you can't assume that your strategy is giving you any advantage. The vast majority of systems and methods will give scores which fluctuate between these values - that's just randomness at work. It's only when your score moves
outside these values (and
continues to move away from one or the other of them) that you know you're on to something.
In general, a negative score means you're doing
worse than average (a score of zero means your strategy is right about where it should be, according to chance). But note that a score of -5 means you're doing much worse than you should be, and
this is just as significant as a score of +5. If you you're getting scores which are increasingly negative, logic suggests you should (if possible) bet the
opposite strategy. :thumbsup:
[box title=Z]
----- -4 ------> -3 ------ Interval of Chance (Luck) ------ +3 <------ +4 -----[/box]
It's important to realize that your score needs to keep increasing as you make more bets, to be sure that you're operating "outside" randomness. Fluctuations will still occur even if you have a real edge, so it doesn't matter if the score climbs to 3.0, then drops back to 2.5 over the next session, as long as the overall trend is upwards.
Here is the formula for z:
z= (w - np)/sqrt(np(1 - p)) Note: "sqrt" is the square-root functionDon't panic, I'll go through some examples.
There are 3 variables in the formula:
- w - the number of wins in the sequence
- n - the number of placed bets (wins + losses)
- p - the probability of winning a single bet
example 1Let's take the first sequence of W/L above (betting R/B) -
LLLWLLWLWLLLWLLLWLWLLWWW
There are 9 wins, so
w = 9The total number of placed bets is 24 (9 wins, 15 losses), so
n = 24The probability of a winning a single outcome is 18/37, so
p = 18/37 = 0.4865Plug these numbers into the formula:
z = (9 - 24*0.4865)/sqrt(24*0.4865*(1-0.4865)) = -1.093
Notice that even though the score is fairly poor, a profit of 16u was made in this sequence. The danger with progressions is they can lead you into a false sense of security, making you think you have an advantage (you're making money right?) , but the "advantage" is often illusory.
example 2Ok, we'll take the 2nd sequence above -
LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLL
Here there are 2 wins -
w = 2There are 45 bets, so
n = 45If the sequence comes from betting 2 numbers, then
p = 2/37 = 0.0541So z = (2 - 45*0.0541)/sqrt(45*0.0541*(1-0.0541)) = -0.286
So for this sequence, the bet selection was running a little below average.
example 3Here is a sequence of W/L playing 2 dozens -
LWWWWWLWWLLWWWWWWLLWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLWLLWLLWWWLWWW
There are 36 wins, so
w = 36There are 48 bets in total,
n = 48The probability is 24/37,
p = 0.6486And z = (36 - 48*0.6486)/sqrt(48*0.6486*(1-0.6486)) = 1.472
Not bad, more testing needed...
Ok, that's enough examples. One question though, what about if you're not betting on the same group (size) of numbers? suppose your method calls for a number of bets on a dozen, then maybe a couple on streets, or perhaps you start off on 24 numbers and gradually work you way down to a single number (as in the so-called "parachute" strategies), is there a way of calculating the z-score for that kind of system?
The answer is yes, but it can get a little tedious working it out, so a spreadsheet is highly recommended. Actually, it's not a bad idea to use one anyway, then you can update the z-score quickly every bet or few bets as you do the testing. By doing this you might be able to spot more easily any weaknesses in the strategy as they occur.
Suppose you make a series of 20 bets:
5 on double streets (p = 6/37 = 0.162),
5 on singles streets (p = 3/37 = 0.081),
3 on dozens (p = 12/37 = 0.324),
7 on an EC (p = 18/37 = 0.486)
To use the z-score formula, you need an
average value for p, so you have to multiply each separate p by the number of bets, add up the total, and divide by the total number of bets made (20).
So,
5 x 0.162 = 0.81
5 x 0.081 = 0.405
3 x 0.324 = 0.972
7 x 0.486 = 3.402
Add them up - which gives 5.589, and 5.589/20 = 0.279. This is the average p which you use in the formula for z.
You can find more information on statistical testing here: nolinks://nolinks.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html (nolinks://nolinks.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/experiments/statistics.html)
Note:
There are actually 2 interpretations of the z-score. In both cases it measures outcomes, but
in one case the outcome represents a win/loss result and in the other it represents what the wheel actually produced. There's no conflict - for example, if you were betting Red, and the wheel generated a sequence of 10 Reds in a row, then the z-score would be the same for both your wins vs losses (10 consecutive wins), and for the outcomes generated for the wheel (10 reds in a row). This is simply a consequence of the probabilities being the same for an individual outcome - ie; the probability of a win betting on Red is the same probability of a Red occurring.
Alternatively, you might be using a bet selection which bets on Red for 5 spins, then switches to Black for 5 spins, alternating this way. So if you start a session and the first 10 outcomes generated by the wheel are:
RRRRRBBBBB
Then your z-score would be more than 3.0, but the z-score with respect to Red would be zero, because there are as many Blacks as Reds in the sequence.
It might be more helpful to think about what the z-score actually measures; it measures the difference between actual results, and what the results should be, on average, according to the normal distribution. Whether they are
your results (from a particular bet selection), or results "from the wheel" is irrelevant. In that sense the z-score is a relative measure.
Another way to think about it (which might be a little less confusing) is to interpret the z-score in only one way - that of what your results would be if you were betting on the outcomes that the wheel actually produced. So an increasing z-score would mean that the outcomes generated by the wheel
coincide with what you are choosing to bet on.
Topic stickied.
Thanks Tangram. :thumbsup:
Interesting. Now I know how one can establish a "margin of error" of a particular measurement tool/method.
Seeing as SD is the "measurement of the spread/deviation of data values from the mean", I also think it's what we would implement in (for example) measuring the volatility of a particular market in a chosen period, and stuff like that.
"If Black has hit 30 times in a row there is both a possibility and a probability for it to hit again.
But maybe it is not very likely?"
Aren't these mutually exclusive statements? (Hell, I don't know what that means; it just sounded good!)
Let's try again: Don't these two statements contradict each other? Both cannot be true, can they? Because if they CAN, I'm going back to my original system which won thousands until I learned it wouldn't work!
TwoCat
Hmmmmmmm...an afterthought....
Perhaps his word "maybe" is his wiggle room. Huh?
It's working. Thanks Victor. :thumbsup:
"How to know when you have a good strategy." >>> Good question. This is how I gage it and YES, it might sound a bit odd. During play (assuming I'm ahead) I actually pay off a bill in my head or a partial bill depending on when I need to leave or I'll set a goal of how much the bill is.
EXAMPLE: Lets say I owe $1,200 for 'whatever'. I get to that amount (net) and leave, BILL PAID! Thats how I know I have a good strategy. NOT the neat, cool chips in front of me but how can I BETTER MYSELF once I have LEFT the casino...doing what with the net amount? Ken
How do you know when you have a good strategy? When the thought crosses your mind....I think I'll post this on VLS. Then you decide the majority of the members there are not worthy of receiving it.
Spike was right. You say you'll give away your winning method. You say and swear that....until you find it!
There is one person on this forum who has done a foolish thing, although I know he is not a fool. He has given away something he should have locked away for his grandchildren. I am totally certain there are many who decide not to join his club.
See what all your hate and negativism has done to VLS?
This forum has made me sick to my G.U.T for a year now. Somebody ban me, for God's sake, and put me out of my misery!
Sam