Soon i'm going to have programmers work on software that will analyze RNG spins to check for patterns or anything that can be exploited. It will function as a sort of AI (artificial intelligence) where algorithms will be changed then tested, then results analyzed to check for statistical anomalies. It will not be like roulette xtreme where things need to be defined - it will be more on AI which is far more complex.
This is a serious push to find the "holy grail", without being related to precognition (which may very well be a viable answer anyway, but thats another story).
So in this thread I'm after ideas to put in the software. For example:
* different ways to visually represent data (to visually check for possible patterns). This is partly how I discovered how best to model the relationship between variables, other variables and spin outcomes for real wheels.
* Variables to try. For example, the software may be asked to see if specific events are any more likely to occur after other specific events.
For now it is very early days. I anticipate it will be free for everyone - a sort of "open source" project. The forum exists to find ways to beat roulette. Well it's for more than that for most people. But for rng discussions, the forums all go in circles with little or no organized/concentrated effort to get things done.
Please let's have serious discussions here about what can be done. This part of development is more about INTUITION rather than logic. Logic comes later. We are just after ideas.
Good idea. I'm working on mine too. I know for a fact that the elegant pattern exists. I've used them four times now in the past twenty years. They are very rare. But they are also pure ATM machine in quality. Every random oriented game at a casino is susceptible to them as a very powerful weakness. That leaves you with the not so perfect patterns and trends that occur all the time. The more you know about trends the easier it will be to write your software. Good luck with it.
I have seen patterns in RNG for myself, but none that are practical or can be used, at least not yet. I do believe it is possible to beat rng some way, but just not in the way 99.9% of RNG players try.
Hey Guys
Am simply appaled that people are still thinking that the roulette" can be beaten"
Its clear that the roulette has been beaten.
The only question is whether the roulette boss will allow you to beat it with any system under trial. . . .
Look am not even guessing I can tell you of a fact I have used established principles known by most sensible casino boss and recently used $300 to make over 15,000 over the course of 3 weeks on a live casino.
I wont name which one but the catch was that their sheat software was nit working so they quickly scrambled and got it sorted. . I know there are skeptics that will doubt this.
But even the so called brick and mortar casinos are beaten. . . I will challenge anyone who knows a brick and mortar casino where the wheel is not manipulated by computer let me know where on the planet it is I will meet you there and personally show you how I play the roulette game and kick ass!
Truth be told there are very few roulette casinos which do not manipulate the wheel result with computer.
Many people are totally unaware but for the observant player they will see the supervisor looking closely at the bets and clicking away at the computer.
In summary the issue/question is not which system can or will beat the roulette but which roulette boss will allow the good player to beat his roulette (online or offline)
Quote from: DonRoul on May 16, 2011, 10:35:39 PM
Truth be told there are very few roulette casinos which do not manipulate the wheel result with computer.
Many people are totally unaware but for the observant player they will see the supervisor looking closely at the bets and clicking away at the computer.
In summary the issue/question is not which system can or will beat the roulette but which roulette boss will allow the good player to beat his roulette (online or offline)
I just love magical thinking. Imagine I was to walk up to the door of surgery in a hospital, where a life and death surgery was going on, and I concluded that it was a Milk Man sacrifice to the gods of Linen, Blood, and Secret Masks. I'd know the secret. Now imagine that I show up at a pharmaceutical junket for tired surgeons in the Cayman Islands. I could tells them the secret of the masks.
Smart guy? Have you any understanding or knowledge about comps? What are those?... I know, they are payoffs for tempting people to come back and get screwed by the master computer. :pleasantry:
Quote from: Gizmotron link=topic=18677. msg136169#msg136169 date=1305598559
I just love magical thinking. Imagine I was to walk up to the door of surgery in a hospital, where a life and death surgery was going on, and I concluded that it was a Milk Man sacrifice to the gods of Linen, Blood, and Secret Masks. I'd know the secret. Now imagine that I show up at a pharmaceutical junket for tired surgeons in the Cayman Islands. I could tells them the secret of the masks.
Smart guy? Have you any understanding or knowledge about comps? What are those?. . . I know, they are payoffs for tempting people to come back and get screwed by the master computer. :pleasantry:
Its obvious that the online games use other software that manipulate the roulette result hence the sudden change in wheel spin then a loss.
Also explains why its so easy when playing with fun money as opposed to real money.
Lets not kid ourselves. . . CASINOS = Crooks (whether or not we want to accept or believe it)
As for the brick and mortar just take a visit to Fallsview Casino in Niagara falls Canada. Visit the VIP room just observe instead of play.
Quote from: DonRoul on May 16, 2011, 11:26:58 PM
Its obvious that the online games use other software that manipulate the roulette result hence the sudden change in wheel spin then a loss.
Also explains why its so easy when playing with fun money as opposed to real money.
I know man! George Bush knows all about it too. That's why he put the kibosh on on-line gambling in the USA.
So what's the goal here?
Are you trying to develop something that consistently beats RNG by flat betting?
If so, I think you'll struggle.
Like it or not, I think you will have to employ some kind of progressive betting to stand any chance.
And then there is the real danger of disconnection from online casinos just as you reach the upper levels of your progression ladder...so easy to do, and that's free money for them.
Why do you want to beat RNG?
Is it to develop a bot for playing online, or are you looking to develop something people can play manually in real time?
The aim is to create software that uses a form of artificial intelligence to search for any kind of usable pattern with rng numbers. I know there are patterns - there are fractals. But those ones cannot be used in any practical way.
This kind of software will just run when you arent using your computer. It may generate and search through a few million spins with different combinations, looking for different things - countless permutations.
One example is looking at a string of numbers, then seeing where and when it occurs again, then compare that to the last time, then last time etc etc.
Yes, but what will you do with it?
It is a concentrated effort to see if usable patterns in rng can be found. If I succeed, then the patterns will be used to develop an rng system.
I plan to make the software free. After all, we are not competing against each other. The catch is results will be uploaded to my server so if someone succeeds, I will know about it. So will the user that found potential patterns. From there, I intend to share it. Imagine what it would do to casinos using rng.
It's like software that is available for everyone, which searches for order in seemingly random radio signals from space. When you dont use your computer, data can be analyzed. I think it was SETI has something like that. That way it is like using a super computer to analyze a lot of data, and in this case, over 1m spins, there are countless possible permutations. For a single computer to do that many calculations would take forever.
Do I expect to succeed? Nope. But I'm still going to try. And since everyone is so set on rng, why dont we finally put our heads together. This is an open project for everyone.
I am very much surprised.Steve as an expert of the knowledge of the roulette is developing a HOLY GRAIL.A roulette wheel and a fair RNG do the same.They create a honest random row.35 Years long I study random rows with the computer.I did it with BASIC,VB and now with excel.I use in strategies the features of the sequences .I have developed several strategies they will not loose over 1M spins.You cannot use these strategies ,because they use too much time.That is the problem .
A practical strategy must give a profit within 250 spins.Searching for patterns in number random rows is waisting your time.I use the features of the random rows of the ECs,dozens and columns,sixlines and streets.
The major difference between rng and real wheels is that:
RNG uses chipset timings, all digital. There are no physics or known variables to use to calculate predictions. And there is no logical progression of events - it is a digital environment. Rng is not even roulette at all - its a fancy slot machine.
Real wheels: it is all real and physical. Things behave according to laws we can measure for predictiom.
Again I dont expect to succeed, but i'm still going to try. If anyone has any theories about rng and patterns, this may be the best place you can contribute.
Perhaps what I'm asking from everyone needs a different approach. Let's first ask this question:
With rng, what IS predictable?
come on guys, put your heads together. It sure beats running around like headless chooks coming up with the same stuff repackaged in a different way.
For example:
At least over the short term, there will be uneven distribution (clumping). In other words, over 37 spins, in your lifetime you're unlikely to ever see all 37 numbers hit in 37 spins.
What else do we know? Importantly the above doesnt help us increase the accuracy, at least not directly. We MUST increase accuracy of predictions. That's why we're searching for some kind of order or predictability.
In science we have some different kind of RNGs.In statistic we have several methos,test, to prove a sequence is random..There is no doubt on the randomness of modern RNG.On the PC we use e pseudo RNG which create a sequence by a mathematics algorithm.I asked my university ,is it possible to detect the algorithm when you know the random row.The answer was ,it is waisting your time.
The more possibilities of a chance the larger must be the test sample.For numbers over the 1M.
I transfer the number sequence in a sequence of HIGH and LOW.IN this case I need a small sequence to detect special events .I found that the results of a 250 spin sample is enough to develop a strategy.The very simply theory of Blaise Pascal tells me what the average permanence must be.
My bots beat the roulette, but the profit is very poor and take a lot of time ( number of spins).
I shall follow the discussion with great interest.
Steve, I don't know much about your systems and methods, but I know that you have some kind of pattern analysing software; I assume you've tried running RNG spins through it and haven't found any patterns that can be exploited in the way that wheels can?
What IS predictable from an RNG? I would say nothing, only the long-term stats predicted by probability, but they don't help.
Then again, the way that the spins are generated must have some affect on the patterns, so to me it doesn't make sense to crack a 'generic' RNG, just as in the same way you wouldn't expect to see the same types of bias on all wheels (regardless of type or manufacturer).
The absolute toughest thing in roulette for an RNG to accomplish is to get through 37 numbers without a repeat.
I believe this makes repeating numbers the most likely focal point for this endeavour.
Yes I may be wasting my time. I said that, but also said I'm still going to proceed. Why? Because what I'm doing has never been done before. It will be a form of AI analysis.
Hi Steve,i dont know if this is the sort of statistic you would like to look further into. Spin the wheel until you get 18 unique numbers,on average this takes about 24 spins. 6 repeaters. The other half of the board which hasnt hit is exactly the same as any ec not hitting for 24 spins ie 24 reds hitting on the trot,therefore the blacks(remaining 18 nos) are due to start hitting. Hope you can find something in this to help.
Bombus what do you mean with"37 numbers without a repeat"?
Is it 12 26 16 16 33 or 12 26 16 33 2 16 35 ??
The 1/3 rule tells us there are about 12 numbers repeat in a row of 36 spins.
Every row of 37 spins is very uniquec because it occurs once in 37^37 spins.
Chippi what is an unique number.All 37 numbers are unique.The wheel or the RNG has no preference
Quote from: schoenpoetser on May 20, 2011, 06:01:57 AM
Bombus what do you mean with"37 numbers without a repeat"?
I mean RNGs don't have the intelligence to put out 37 numbers (going from 0 to 36 in any order) before repeating one of the numbers already put out.
Here you go.
I got this from a Really Nice Guy I know.
6x6 number groups:
1) 11.14.15.31.32.36
2) 4.8.9.19.22.30
3) 2.10.18.21.23.29
4) 5.7.17.24.25.28
5) 6.12.16.33.34.35
6) 1.3.13.20.26.27
Record the numbers until,
Any two consecutive hits in group 1) = bet YO, 1 unit, 1 time.
Any two consecutive hits in group 2) = bet RO, 1 unit, 1 time.
Any two consecutive hits in group 3) = bet RP, 1 unit, 1 time.
Any two consecutive hits in group 4) = bet BP, 1 unit, 1 time.
Any two consecutive hits in group 5) = bet BG, 1 unit, 1 time.
Any two consecutive hits in group 6) = bet YG, 1 unit, 1 time.
After each win, keep betting until the next number out leaves the trigger group. Then wait for two consecutive hits in one group before betting again.
0 = wildcard for previous group hit, but never for next group hit.
Betting groups:
YO= 4.8.9.11.13.14.15.19.20.22.26.30.31.32.36
RO= 2.4.8.9.10.11.15.18.19.21.22.23.29.30.31
RP= 2.4.5.7.8.10.17.18.21.22.23.24.25.28.29
BP= 2.5.6.7.10.12.16.17.24.25.28.29.33.34.35
BG= 1.3.6.12.13.16.17.20.24.26.27.28.33.34.35
YG= 1.3.6.11.13.14.15.20.26.27.31.32.33.35.36
Here's a typical 500 spin RNG demolition session...
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi499.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr351%2Fskakus%2Fpunt%2FRNGweb.jpg&hash=2ca0aeccd951f06701fed536024fb7cd9e09b14e)
Here's the summary.
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fi499.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr351%2Fskakus%2Fpunt%2FRNGsummaryweb.jpg&hash=05b3a22ed4a55d8321e054386bf7245e0c0a1a0b)
So what is this doing?
Well, it's getting your program to hunt for preset conditions then associating those conditions back to predetermined number societies. The idea being that the RNG has no idea what you're doing, which is fair because you have no idea what the RNG is doing.
This example's particular setup uses the colour wheel down to secondary colours. They are placed in order around the wheel then grouped according to colours. This could be correlated to numbers instead of colours. Instead of Y YO O RO R RP P BP B BG G YG you could have 1 12 2 23 3 34 4 45 5 56 6 61.
Around the wheel you say?... Yes, why not?
The RNG has no idea what a wheel is, or in what order the numbers are placed around the wheel, which is fair because you have no idea in what order the RNG will make the numbers arrive.
Maybe you could make a program that randomly distributes the numbers around the wheel after every result, and then reassigns the number societies for each spin according to the new wheel arrangement.
I'll give an example of one of the functions. It'll generate say 1m spins. The rng will be done over a few times like a so called "true rng" does. Then it will take a sequence of numbers and check for occurences of what sequence over the 1m spins. then over another set of 1m spins etc. Then it will compare the number of spins between those occurences, and check for possible patterns between groupings.
A large part of it will check to see if there is any predictabiliuty to CLUMPING. For example, over 37 spins, about a third will be repeats. Statistically, of course eventually all 37 numbers will be generated in 37 spins. But I'll test that too, over billions of rng spins. Will it all match up to what we expect? I expect it will.
But still is there any order in it? There always is, because nothing is ever random. So its more a question of can the order be figured out to the point where we can increase accuracy of predictions. Thats what I'm trying to figure out.
It is a lot more involved than looking for sequences though. We can even try 3D charting to check for patterns. Imagine forming a 3D chart that we can scroll around and check. Maybe theres something a 2D chart wouldnt show, but 3D would.
If there is to be a chance of success, NEW things need to be thought of.
Don't put the cart before the horse Steve. These RNGs are re-seeding all the time; the algorithms are perpetually altered, so LONG distance forecasting is probably defunct.
Having said that it can only go "36 degrees" so at best you will probably just end up with the most expensive randomizer in history that just breaks even or as schoenposter says... the result is predictable, -2.7%. :)
It probably won't work, but I believe you can "fit" your AI to win over millions of known spins. For a bet with payout x:1, you should test it over x*1e6 spins, and maybe it is not enough. You want an AI to do the trick for you? Do it simple - program back propagation network (nolinks://galaxy.agh.edu.pl/~vlsi/AI/backp_t_en/backprop.html (nolinks://galaxy.agh.edu.pl/~vlsi/AI/backp_t_en/backprop.html)), then add some more outputs to them and store them in a variable, which is an input each spin - they are a memory for it. You want to make a set of those variables to be always same - round 0.3 to 0, 0.9 to 1 and make a lot of them. You can also make some like 0,0.25,0.5,0.75,1 by rounding them. Because of this, neural network has a state and feedback - it has a simple "consciousness". Then train it over those spins to see if it works. If there is something, it might find it. Or train it with a genetic algorithm and use backpropagation to just converge faster, backpropagation itself will stuck. I think that this is probably waste of time - too much hustle, you should know why your algorithm works or not. You should also ignore zero in your testing, or do both with and without zero. Make it a filter - measure z-score over original spins and over bets recommended by AI. If it is never higher than some value, you might have something. You said you want to do something like SETI - are you going to use BOINC?
Bombus the system you describe in reply 21 doesnot belong in this thread.I am busy to analyse the system and later on I`ll give you my remarks.
Back to the thread.
In my opinion are the results of every random row inside small deviations predictable.If some patterns will repeat with a algorithm the sequence is not random.
I take in my strategy relative small samples with specific features from a very large sequence.All small sequences form together all so a new sequence.
Steve there is no mathematically difference in a random row of numbers and a row of H/l.Better study a bi sequence.
In my opinion you are looking for a Holy Grail.
You're probably right schoey, I only put it here as food for thought.
This may sound a bit crazy but it strikes me that as long as you had a 'fair' rng, it should be easier to beat than a physical roulette wheel.
Let's say you are playing rng and you have a timer which makes you push the spin button every seconds. Is it possible this will produce more long lasting streaks of one kind or another.
You have no croupier changes. No players coming in and out of the game effecting the timeline of events.
Maybe I am just looking for positives that are not really there, who knows. I will certainly give it some thought.
Absolutely right, yes I'm looking for a "holy grail". I have made it clear I dont expect I will succeed, but I will still try, and am after input from everyone. Most people go in circles and dont try new things. What I am doing here is NEW.
Bombus I know what you said, but that is what real casino RNG does. To generate any RNG numbers, there will be multiple passes. We dont know what can be found until we look, and look in different ways.
About 11 years ago, I came up with a formula for tracking dealer signature. I used a 12 number flat-betting scheme. I'd track for 20 spins, then bet the next 18 spins. Of course, due to the complexity of the calculation and the fact that I was a history major, instead of a math major, all my harried scribbling was bound to cripple my method with the observer effect, once I got beyond the $ 0. 25 tables. I was encouraged by the results, but convinced myself that without a less conspicuous method of tracking (hidden computer), it was impractical to continue.
Anyway, lately I've been considering another run at it. Perhaps, this time I'd collaborate with someone whose talents went beyond the predictive pattern-recognition skills of a good history major, someone whose skills included technology, programming, and advanced mathematics (areas where I'm . . . deficient).
So, I'm thinking in terms of short-term virtual bias analysis, incorporating sector, range, and recurrence, to determine which, if any, of these elements is trending the hottest at any given spin mark. I've done some crude/limited testing of this approach, but haven't had the time, tech, or resources for any sophisticated/conclusive analysis . . . yet. Seems ideally suited for the type of thing Steve is attempting to coordinate, though. FWIW.
Treat dealer signature as just another variable, not the be all end all. I start out teaching players about basic reference charting, ie from one spin to the next. I call it primordial charting. From there, many more variables are introduced that increase predictability of spins. For example you can mix vb, bias analysis, dealer signature and more rolled into one method. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.
I like that term: "primordial charting. " Where can I read more about that?
You're probably right to disregard the mechanical/human elements in rng analysis. But, is it possible to treat the rng programmer/s as a virtual croupier?
Also, if there's a system of analysis (with the circumstantial exception of vb) you'd apply to a list of numbers from a physical wheel, one that demonstrates better than statistically average predictive success, have you already applied the same method to strings of rng generated numbers? If so, what was the degree of variance?
If you can reverse-engineer strings of numbers, whether from virtual or physical wheels, to create short-term player advantage, how important is actual cause to the virtual effect?
Please, understand that I'm asking out of relative ignorance -- not for the purposes of argumentation -- since I've conducted no such comparison myself.
Thanks
You must first ask yourself what you want to discover of the software.
It is useless to examine a honest scientific RNG.
What kind of software does a internet casino use and how they will make profit.
The software consists with some partial software programs
1) The rng
2) the recording program
3) detection program
4) a bankroll
The programs together makes the software.Depends the outcome on 1( 2) and 3) than in my opinion the software is manipulated.You have to examine the source software to prove it.
To prove it with a analyse program you need a very large sample.
The best way is to develop a program for EC.
Quote from: bombus on May 18, 2011, 01:39:27 AM
So what's the goal here?
Like it or not, I think you will have to employ some kind of progressive betting to stand any chance.
And then there is the real danger of disconnection from online casinos just as you reach the upper levels of your progression ladder...so easy to do, and that's free money for them.
I think your spot on there Bombus. Where RNG is concerned, A progression that is gradual and maybe tied in with mathmatics I feel could work very well. The martingale is betting suicide, so it has stay practical and within table limits. I have one which im currently testing and looks promising so far, but I havent done anywhere near enough tests, allthough it does look promising.