Real vs. Live Online, Dealer can aim (how accurate)?

[JHM]

This topic is to help us decide where to play the best concerning the dealer's influence.

What do you think?

Can a dealer aim for a part of the wheel, off course they can. But how often will they hit that part, there are deflectors (I don't know how the things on the wheel are called) and the ball can ricochet. And if they can aim very accurate what is the range 1-3 numbers 3-6 numbers ..... etc. Not to forget, how skilled must the dealer be?

Let's say a dealer can aim very accurate, than is it better to play a real live casino online (Dublinbet). The dealers can't see your bets, or do they have a ear peace?

Please discus.

Jur

[TwoCatSam]

JHM

First, do we believe in dealer signature?  I'm not sure I do.  Just because three wheels in the casino do three different things does not absolutely mean it's a dealer causing it.  The wheel does what the wheel does for no reason whatsoever.

The only way a person would ever prove this would be to buy their own Huxley wheel, spin it a few times and see if they can do it.  No?

Suppose Jan at Dublin could hit the sectors at will.  Don't you suppose Jan and a buddy would be raking it in?  Well, who knows, maybe they are!

Sam

[JHM]

JHM

First, do we believe in dealer signature?  I'm not sure I do.  Just because three wheels in the casino do three different things does not absolutely mean it's a dealer causing it.  The wheel does what the wheel does for no reason whatsoever.

The only way a person would ever prove this would be to buy their own Huxley wheel, spin it a few times and see if they can do it.  No?

Suppose Jan at Dublin could hit the sectors at will.  Don't you suppose Jan and a buddy would be raking it in?  Well, who knows, maybe they are!

Sam

I'm hoping for a dealer or ex dealer here to post, if there's one on the forum.

I mean, it is important to know for our strategy. We do want to beat the casino, don't we?

[TwoCatSam]

Oh, there was one.....Maltzean

He said he couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a base fiddle!

Well, he actually said he could not hit sectors and never knew anyone who could.  He said it's all a myth.

Sam

[JHM]

Oh, there was one.....Maltzean

He said he couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a base fiddle!

Well, he actually said he could not hit sectors and never knew anyone who could.  He said it's all a myth.

Sam

I have the same thought. But never trust on one opinion, right?

[Wildcard]

I read somewhere that if you would hold the ball above any given number ( say zero ) and aimed for that number simply by dropping the ball (the wheel being still, not spinning), you would have a hard time making the ball fall in that little pocket.

So, how can a dealer aim for a certain pocket or sector having the wheel going one way and the ball going the opposite way ?

To me, that´s crazy.

[Talesman]

"to me that's crazy".....

Actually, if you understand physics, it's not all that crazy at all.

Let's cut to the chase here.

I'll skip all the rhetoric about "muscle memory" (look that up) and a whole lot of other subjects that have been written about by serious writers in the gaming industry.

You are a dealer.  And unlike 95% of your fellow dealers you take pride in your craft and you generally enjoy the customers who frequent your table.  In other words you are normal, not a shifter.

What kind of skill DO YOU believe you would have, spinning the ball, after 14 years AT THE SAME WHEEL and doing so for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year for 14+ years?

It could be consciously or unconsciously but there are traits/skills you have to develop as that is inevitable.  How you use them and to what end you use them is another story.

I have been in dealer forums and seen this subject discussed.  It is only those who put in their 8 hours and run over their fellow employees at quitting time so as to be first out the door that have negative statements about dealer ability.  They have zero pride in their craft.  They collect their paycheck and their share of the tip money and they are gone until the next shift.  Those posters only judge others by themselves.

Do all dealers, regardless of their experience, have any sort of special spin ability?  I'll have to answer no. Simply because they have not taken the time to analyze what they are doing.  And they probably could care less about of most outcomes anyway.

If you are a bowler maybe you will understand this. 

Many folks join a bowling league to have fun and intermingle.  Some over the course of years may have started with an average of 110 and worked their way up to 140 (15 years later).  Others, over the course of just one season could have started the same and ended up with a 180 average.  Why?  Simply because they took the time and effort to involve themselves and improve themselves.  Same goes for roulette dealers.  Some try it just for the fun of it. Can I do it?  Is it possible?  Will I ever be able to master such a skill?  And the list goes on.  Others WORK on it and do so daily.  That is the nature of humans.

As I said before, some consciously try to either help or hurt a player (or the house) and others do it exactly the same thing without thinking about it.

Is each and every spin successful?  Of course not.  Just like not every multi-million dollar baseball player will get a hit when they are at-bat.  For what they are being paid - each at-bat should be a home-run for their team.  And I would guess since the eyes of the nation or world is on them each time they are up to bat they are giving or are expected to give 100%.  Even giving 100% each time you try is not always a success and professional sports and the recent Olympics show that.

As to on-line...well good luck figuring all that out. 

[MattyMattz]

Excellent post Talesman. 

I've never hear it explained better (and as a bowler, it really hit home)

Cheers,
Matt

[Wildcard]

Hi Talesman, thank you for your wise words made out of personal experience.

I totally agree with you about the true professionals Vs. shifters. I have that in my line of work and believe me i take it to heart.

What i wanted to point out is that, for example, if i press PRINT at my work terminal, i will get a printed document, but i do not accept that if a dealer aims for a specific sector he will get (hit) that sector, other than by chance.

You are an experienced gambler. You know how the ball bounces all over the place. There are spins where it bounces to the extreme opposite of the landind zone...

They don´t hit a sector at will. True professionals might perfect their abilities, however i find it impossible that they manage to overcome the uncertainty of the (future) ball scatter, after some rotations of the wheel and the ball, being that they have their own velocities and when the ball meets the wheel it producess a clash. Roulette dealer´s ability is hardly something similar to an archers ability.

I´m not a bowler, but i played the game on one occasion or other... That´s something you can improve your accuracy on since you direct the ball towards the impact zone that you know where it is.

A spinning wheel and a spinning ball is a different story altogether. When they meet, who knows where the ball will stop ?

Certainly not the gambler nor the guy who throwed the ball a few seconds ago ! 

Well, that´s my view on the subject, it might be wrong but rest assured i respect and take in consideration your opinion.

[Talesman]

Wildcard, I know I cannot convince you of anything.  You sound exactly like a few folks at a dealers forum I used to haunt.

But if you had been with me in Biloxi, MS pre-Katrina and watched me with a few dealers you might have a change of heart.

Speaking of Biloxi - I ran into one cute gal two trips ago who about every 5th spin or so would tell us what number was next.  Over the course of about 35-40 minutes she hit it 3 times and once it went into that pocket and jumped back out.  There was only one other player besides myself and neither of us bet with the dealer the first two times she told us what to expect. Who knew? The third time I bet the number and several neighbors (as insurance). Wish I had bet more.  And when she announced a number that I wasn't covering, I'd take my system bets down, just in case.  Was she successful each and every time?  Hell no.  But she was always close.

Notice I did not say either of us asked for a particular number and got it.  But the dealer did hit the number she said she would.  There is a difference.

[JHM]

Wildcard, I know I cannot convince you of anything.  You sound exactly like a few folks at a dealers forum I used to haunt.

But if you had been with me in Biloxi, MS pre-Katrina and watched me with a few dealers you might have a change of heart.

Speaking of Biloxi - I ran into one cute gal two trips ago who about every 5th spin or so would tell us what number was next.  Over the course of about 35-40 minutes she hit it 3 times and once it went into that pocket and jumped back out.  There was only one other player besides myself and neither of us bet with the dealer the first two times she told us what to expect. Who knew? The third time I bet the number and several neighbors (as insurance). Wish I had bet more.  And when she announced a number that I wasn't covering, I'd take my system bets down, just in case.  Was she successful each and every time?  Hell no.  But she was always close.

Notice I did not say either of us asked for a particular number and got it.  But the dealer did hit the number she said she would.  There is a difference.

Exact nr. -> close
Part of the wheel -> Yes

But how many dealers have this ability?

[Talesman]

How many?  Who knows.

Better question...how many will openly demonstrate their skills to either to the House or the player?

I wish VIP were still around. There you'd have found some credible rants about dealers spinning against them and successfully.  Many from EU but quite a few from AU as well.  I am not talking newbies.  These were all seasoned veterans and long-time roulette players.  Folks who KNOW what is what.

BTW these folks with special skills be it a spinner, a card dealer who could deal seconds undetected, etc. were a staple in the old days of Las Vegas before all that was cleaned up.  Several credible books printed over the years cover that and more.

I once watched a video on game protection that was published for the industry. What I saw there was unbelievable.  That included a person who was able to hit virtually any number on a roulette wheel on demand.

Dice mechanics (ever see a helicopter shot or a true dead-cat bounce?), card dealers who can deal from anywhere in the deck undetected (a reason I will not play BJ where the dealer holds the deck in his hand), croupiers who have extraordinary skills, along with many patron cheaters were featured. 

These people and their skills exist.  And when they get old, retire or die off others will eventually take their place.  It is done in magician circles all the time so why not in casino gaming circles as well?

Item last, FWIW.

Back a few years when I was seriously into dice control when I hit Biloxi or Tunica I sometimes went to the local dealer's school and rented a few hours time on a full-size craps table to practice before starting my casino forays for the week. In one of them there was a rather old roulette wheel. The staple of the industry from the 70's to the 90's (deep pockets).  An instructor there once showed me how he could hit virtually any number on-demand. And seeing him do what he did appeared to me like he did it w/o effort.  Like it was the most natural thing in the world.  Very fluid is the only way I can describe it.  Then again, it was his wheel.

[TwoCatSam]

I have screen capture movies of many, many days of roulette.

Anyone care to look at my posted numbers under "actuals" and tell me where the dealer changed by how the numbers changed?

If the dealers truly have developed "muscle memory" then it should show. 

I think it would be amazing if anyone could predict when a dealer changed to within a certain number of spins.  What would be good:  5, 10?

We can all learn something here.

Sam

[Talesman]

About 2 years ago I was testing plans against Hamburg actuals. 

It was win, lose, lose, win.  I noticed a pattern.  After finishing I opened the file.  I am thankful  for the "---" that denoted dealer change.

After testing a month's worth I found one dealer who allowed me to win constantly.  (That is an assumption on my part that each time there was dealer change in the file and the number sets that appeared in my favor were all from the same person. Also, it appeared to me that whoever that was usually had a 4-day work week.)  Problem was the dealers generally only did 12-20 spins then take a break. I was almost tempted to fly there and find out who was on the table at points X and X and X during the one month...and wait until that person came one and play with all the $$$ I had.

That's all I have to offer currently about sight-unseen dealers.

[TwoCatSam]

Talesman........

Not to be argumentative, but...........

If I were tracking a deer and the prints suddenly turned to wolf, I would have no trouble noticing the exact print where this took place.

If dealer signature is all that obvious, would it not be like a deer/bear/wolf/blonde track?  Or Bigfoot vs Tiny Tim?  Aw, you get my drift!

You do not need to see the dealer, know his sex, name, or anything else.  All you need know is that various human beings spun this wheel over the last hundred spins.

Now, if you qualify it by saying, "Well they must spin X number of times.", then you nullify your thesis as you can never be guaranteed a dealer will spin even five times.  I've seen them get a sneezing fit and have to leave.  I've seen them leave for no reason, live and on line.

If you're saying this:  "If a dealer spins 50 times, I can tell when he quits."  Well, yeah, he quit at spin 50!

So are you saying there really is a dealer signature, you just can't tell when it begins or ends?

Frankly, I thought you would jump at the chance to prove you actually can perform this feat by looking at 100 numbers and putting that line under the right number.  I will send the video to MattyMatz for his approval so there will be no cheating.  I also have a few from Dublin.  They are real people there, right?

One last try to get you to perform this feat:  I'll go to Wiesbaden permanence and get a pot full of numbers.  I'll send those to Matty and then I'll take out the underlines and let you put them back in.  Are these dealers good enough?

Sir, you have come on this forum with a bit of an attitude about how the unwashed masses don't quite measure up.  I'm giving you a chance to show us what you can do.

There's an old saying:  Don't let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird arse.

Sam

[TwoCatSam]

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