VLS Roulette Forum

OK

Here's the deal.  Each trot I will post the draw down (depth into the bankroll) and the high and the number of spins it took to get there.  The high will always be around 10 E higher than the previous high.  The draw downs will vary according to how the wind blew on that particular trot.  On this first post, I started at 390 Euro.  I am betting .02 per spin and the bot bets every spin.

Here goes:

[table=,]
DATE,,,DRAW DOWN,,,HIGH,,,SPINS USED
6.15.9.1,,,30,,,400,,,2087
[/table]

Victor,

What happened to the "chart" feature that graphed our tests?

Sam

I'll be following you with this Sam, GOOD LUCK  :thumbsup:

Vix

[table=,]
DATE,,,DRAW DOWN,,,HIGH,,,SPINS USED
6.15.9.1,,,30,,,400,,,2087
6.16.9.1,,,23,,,410,,,2050
[/table]

vix

Thanks.

Sam

Good luck Sam :)

Matty

Matty

Thanks for those good wishes. 

In keeping with the gist of my rant posted today, I intend (with the owner's permission) to make a video of the bot earning 10 Euro.  I will not show where the bets are placed but only the Euro amount as it goes up and down.  I am making the video now--just need permission and I will post it soon.

I find it hard to imagine anyone could suspect me of faking this video as the Euro amounts change every few seconds.  (Some probably will!)  What I hope to show is that it goes up and then down and then wins 10 Euro for the trot.

My units are pennies and I am up 31,420 of them.  Imagine that being dimes and then dollars.  Imagine a hundred casinos where you could play.  Imagine a bot so sophisticated that it mimics human play perfectly so as to be undetectable.

Imagine my wife saying, "Why isn't the bot running?"

Sam

Wow, 31,000 units is incredible.   :o  Definitely interested in seeing how this test goes.  Good luck to ya!

what exactly is ' the bot' ? super roulette?

or one of you're own custom systems coded into a bot?

what casino are you playing it at?

playtech too??

rng or live?

sorry for all the q's - im just interested

This bot is the creation of Matt and Tiago2.  I am only testing it and have been for a couple of months.  It works only at Bet Voyager non-zero RNG casino.  Soon this version will hopefully work in other casinos.

Sam

Very good trot of numbers:

[table=,]
DATE,,,DRAW DOWN,,,HIGH,,,SPINS USED
6.15.9.1,,,30,,,400,,,2087
6.16.9.1,,,23,,,410,,,2050
6.16.9.2,,,7,,,420.62,,,1672
[/table]

[table=,]
DATE,,,DRAW DOWN,,,HIGH,,,SPINS USED
6.15.9.1,,,30,,,400,,,2087
6.16.9.1,,,23,,,410,,,2050
6.16.9.2,,,7,,,420.62,,,1672
6.16.9.3,,,1.06,,,430.10,,,1268
[/table]

Below is a graph of today's third session.  (I played too much today!  Made 30 Euro.  Too much.)  Note how I only went down 1.06 in the beginning but had a large drop later on about about spin 950 or so.  One can never tell where the dip may come, if at all.

Sam

[attachimg=#]

OK, I've had another major loss and I've been slow reporting it.  Here is why.

While in Arizona and California I noticed the bot running very slowly.  I went from 400 E down to 150E and I blamed the slow play for this.  When I got home, the speed was great and I zipped back up to 430 Euro in just a few days.  Then it hit the fan.

I began having very slow response from Bet Voyager.  Other bot users did, too.  Normally it takes about 3 seconds from the time the bot clicks "spin" for the number to be selected.  This time varies from 3 up to 40 and more seconds.  Sometimes the ball does not drop at all and the BV disconnects you.  Here in lies the problem.

In one night, the bot stopped numerous times.  My wife and I would get up and start it over.  When I was down $54 I almost cut if off, but didn't.  I (and she) continued to re-start the bot.  You must understand, this is new technology and I am cutting through the underbrush, so to speak.  It is easy to look back and say I should have quit; it much more difficult to do that while betting.  Anyway, I lost all 430 Euro, so I am actually down now 200 Euro.

Since my trip to California, the bot has undergone several updates.  I am not the least bit down on the settings I was using.  I am learning and this is the way you learn.

At home, the bot runs very erratic due--not to the bot or Bet Voyager--but due to the internet connection I have.  Sometimes it is very slow; sometimes fast.  I had the same problem a few months ago and could not even log onto this forum.

If anyone shows any interest I will continue to post my results--good or bad--and go forward.  Herb could be right:  I just hit the big downturn that is always out there.  If that is so, a stop loss of around 50 Euro will take care of it nicely.  The bot will run about a hundred sessions to the good for the one it tosses that is bad.  So you lose 50 and spend five days recovering.  It's the end of the month that counts.

Sam

Quote from: TwoCatSam
Anyway, I lost all 430 Euro, so I am actually down now 200 Euro.

These types of bots cannot win you money...which I believe I pointed out WELL before you were €200 down.
Bots are a convenient illusion scammers use to prey on laziness and desperation.

I'm slightly sorry for your loss. The software is junk. How can something that is destined to lose miraculously be transformed into a winner just through automation? Automation is a gimmick that only means you'll lose quicker.

Quote from: Number Six on June 27, 2009, 04:18:15 PM
These types of bots cannot win you money...which I believe I pointed out WELL before you were €200 down.
Bots are a convenient illusion scammers use to prey on laziness and desperation.

I'm slightly sorry for your loss. The software is junk. How can something that is destined to lose miraculously be transformed into a winner just through automation? Automation is a gimmick that only means you'll lose quicker.

I second that.
Bots = Loss

Number 6

You know, Bro, just because you "pointed out" something to me doesn't mean I accept your pointings-out! 

Let's talk bots.  Matt from Australia paid Tiago2 to create a bot with his ideas contained within.  Another person, a member of this forum, came up with another idea.  This idea has been bandied about by some very well-respected members of this forum.  This person shared with Matt his idea and Matt paid Tiago to program the bot to use it.  My  point?  There are some quite well-respected brains working on this project.  If I am a fool, I am in good company!

The bot does nothing but what it is programmed to do.  Time will tell if this person's idea has merit or falls by the wayside. 

Number 6, you may rest assured that when this bot no longer holds my fascination I will move on to something that does.  For the moment I find it quite interesting and am in contact with far more bot users than you might believe! 

I'm glad you're "almost sorry" for my loss.  I almost believe you!

Don't take this as too much of an insult, but as long as I'm on the loosing side you will believe my posts.  If I said I had won two or three thousand and posted screen shots to back it up, you would probably accuse me of using Photo shop.  It would seem that you have made up your mind on this subject and that is your prerogative.

Good to hear from you.

Sam

Number6 I find your comments offensive and full of ignorance. A number of times you have said you can't be bothered discussing the merits of an automated roulette tool, but then you jump at any opportunity that arises to take a cheap shot at me and the software.

You say as a matter of fact that automated bots can not win you money. Does not the fact that Sam was able to take his balance from 100E to over 400E twice not prove that the BOT does win you money? Sam achieved this not with one lucky session, but with sustained settings over a number of weeks. Like any form of money making efforts, money management is imperative - even the most experienced advantage players or the most advanced predictive, roulette computers dont win every session, losses will come and there needs to be an allowance for their occurrence. Even card counters can have runs where they drop 1000s of units (yes 1000s) but they persist because they know in the long term they have an edge. Taking one loss in isolation and claiming the software is "junk" is simply unfair and I take comments like this personally. I and others have spent countless hours on firstly developing and later refining the software so that now it is even more robust than when it was first release. I win consistently when I use it (every night while I sleep) and others on the private forum are having similiar (some spectacular) results

The stratey Sam was employing is based on certain events always occurring over a set of continuous spins, however he lost connection to BV five times during this run which messes horribly with the logic of how the system works. Each time he re-connected he was presented with a new set of numbers. It would be akin to you sitting down at a live wheel, tracking 200 spins, discovering a trend that is bettable (using any number of advantage techniques) then when your back is turned someone swaps the wheel and you wonder why you lose. This is one area of running the software that I have no control over and it can cause issues - internet connectivity, both from the host; BV and the player in this case Sam's home internet connection. I personally don't have too many issues, sometimes it will lose connection, and if this does happen,I will just take my medicine (if I am down at the time) and close the software, completely logout and start again..

I have the feeling you think the software is simply a primitive tool that waits for X category to miss a number of times and then start a simple martingale type progression - this could not be further from the truth. I know you are very familiar with the "law of the third" and do you know that this applies to any cycle of 37 spins, even RNG? (well in BV case it is 36 spins). One of the betting systems within the BOT is based on this premise, can be played either flat bet or played with a progression and does very well. In fact I use it along with AI (artificial intelligence), this system actually thinks like a human (no wait, even faster than a human) and has the ability to calculate standard deviation and zscore values for over 3000 patterns during a session. I am not sure how familiar you are with binomial distribution but it can be a powerful allie when used correctly, especially in an even chance game. In fact the BOT adapts to the flow of the game and the way the numbers are coming out, and bases it betting on opportunities as the trends of the game emerge - the level of risk and pattern lengths to track are completely configurable by the user as is the sample of spins to track...is this mechanical? most certainly not.

AI is at the cutting edge of giving the player an advantage for an even chance RNG game and it was devleoped thanks to the input from members in the private forum. Have you heard of the saying "strength in numbers"? The private forum is a vibrant place full of ideas and vigourous discussion. People who have bought the software see its enormous potential and want to help develop it even futher - do you still think this is a SCAM?

Ohh I thought I should add, we have a demo version working well with Smart Live Casino and we are close to having Dublinbet ready. The inside number system (based on the law of the third) works even better on the live wheel. We will also incorporate the ability to track wheel bias for 1000s of spins and save them back to a central online database, so the results can be called up for a session as required. Plus another user has contributed a wonderful strategy based on betting wheel sectors. WOW and all this can be automated - who would have thought eh?  ;)

Hey, you know what?...I think our software will be more human like than even humans! :)

Matt

Matt

I agonized over even posting my loss, but I said I would and I am--if nothing else--a man of my word.  I knew there would be repercussions.  Those of us on your forum appreciate your efforts.  We don't think--we know you will succeed!  You said a lot more about how the bot works than I ever would have.  One thing: the bot has given me new respect for Winkel and his binomial distribution.  And the law of the third he spoke of so often.

Matt, I have learned from Marcia that not only I, but she was re-starting the bot that fateful night.  No telling how many times it was re-started. 

Now I am working with the new system recently programmed into the bot.  While it may throw a clunker from time to time (stock market) the upticks will far out pace the downturns. 

God, I am growing sick of this forum!

Sam

Quote from: TwoCatSam

I'm glad you're "almost sorry" for my loss.  I almost believe you!

I'm almost sorry because you conducted a test with real money for the forum's benefit. Remember that the only bots around at the moment implement flawed progression systems. You talk about bot users...yes, I believe there are many, as there are many people here who are desperate for a solution. They want it given to them. Few of them are willing to work hard for it. Many think bots are the answer. But they, and their users, are a joke. None of them will win over the long haul, and that makes them a waste of time. They're pretty much a 100% scam. The sellers know they don't work. It's like selling boxes made out of porcelain to unsuspecting cricketers. hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_(cricket)

I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I only want to help people avoid the losses you have suffered. I tell the truth. People don't listen. Bots have got junk under the hood. There isn't a single bot user out there winning consistently.

Quote from: super-roulette
Number6 I find your comments offensive and full of ignorance.

Of course you do, it's your bot and you have a financially-driven interest to defend it. Truth is, it's losing people money. You're a system seller. Nothing more, nothing less. I do think automation may have potential for the future, and maybe one day you'll produce something great. But perhaps you should increase your knowledge of the game first and accept that certain things regarding it are impossible. Hey, I chime in with the facts and truth from time to time. You can't take it. It's not my problem. I do it for the benefit of the people to whom you're trying to sell a false dream.

N6, for someone who told me they couldn't be bothered discussing this, you seem to take great interest in commenting in someone else's thread in an attempt at belittlement.

Why do you assume I have no knowledge of the game? You know absolutely nothing about me. Do you think I have just dropped from the sky and decided to make a quick buck flogging a roulette system? You make many false assumptions, why don't you try listening a little?

Roulette in itself is not a complicated game, in fact I think many people's frustrations are that they over complicate it. Systems based on mysticism and magic, on hunches and feelings, they will all lead to ruin. N6 have you heard of Ayn Rand? If not Google her,you may learn something.

RNG or live dealer, they can both be overcome - it really is not rocket science.  In fact it is far easier to gain an edge over a real wheel, a physical device, that is not truly random, which over 10s, 100s and 1000s of spins exhibits characteristics which can be tracked, measured and taken advantage of. This is where we are heading and it is very exciting at the potential this software has.

I do not know why you are intent on trying to discredit me, I have never once returned likewise to you. Yes I posted a link here (one link) to my website, to promote a software product I know that works. When Victor said it wasn't allowed, I understood and asked if a test could be run, Victor obliged and well here we are. You offer advice to others on the forum that is constructive and helpful, so I am bemused at your vehement dislike for something that is and will continue to be a powerful tool for playing roulette.

Matt

Matt, I am not trying to discredit you. I have facts. You don't like them and call them false assumptions. You're kidding yourself. You say this bot will win long term. You're in denial of the maths of the game. It doesn't work because it can't work - the maths won't allow it. You seem to believe otherwise, which is why should expand your knowledge. Your bot is just another progression system, only it's automated. You sell it and says it works. Please tell me...why does automation overcome the house egde? That is the primary attribute of the bot. It has nothing else worthy of discussion. It plays systems, probably entirely rule-based, that are subject to randomness's brutal nature. And save the AI crap. That's an illusion that won't wash with me. It has no concept of strategy or intuition. Your bot IS a primitive x and y system. Dress it up all you want, it won't change the truth. In my book it's a scam because it won't achieve what you're claiming.

Quote from: Number Six It doesn't work because it can't work

nolinks://vlsroulette.com/other-software-for-roulette/super-roulette-software-real-money-play/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/other-software-for-roulette/super-roulette-software-real-money-play/)

See link above, check the post dates.
Started on April 14th with €30 on June 28th has now got €780 in the casino (withdrew money several times). Three months. 26 times more than his initial amount he started with still in the casino to use.

Sorry to hear about your loss TwoCatSam, SR is built with profit/loss targets, it'll do exactly as you set it to. It wont prevent you from not setting one or restarting it immediately after a loss target is reached. Money management is always a key factor at winning in roulette.
Continuing playing AI System in SR after connection to the internet was lost wasn't the best idea. AI system relies on a steady flow of numbers. All the best Sam, and may you recover tripple from the loss you had.

Hey there TwoCat, I too am very sorry about your loss...that's really too bad.  I wish it to be your last though  :)

I think Victor has mentioned this to you before on this thread, but I don't know if you noticed it so I'll mention it again. 

You should look into a Virtual Private Server.  It has all the resources of a server, but you can treat it like it is a personal computer.  You just control it via your computer.  But, even with your computer off, it continues to run.  You don't have to worry about disconnects at all (unless it's from BV's end of course).

There is more in the sponsor section, you should really check it.  I mention a site in there that gives a free trial so you can see if you like it without the financial commitment.

N6, not only are you trying to discredit me, but you are also discrediting a number of other like minded people (intelligent people I might add) who spent many hours on developing and refining AI so that now it is a very powerful strategy. You have taken all that work that we as a group invested ourseleves into and diluted it down, to one four letter word - CRAP - in my eyes that is discrediting it. And you do it without a hint of the mechanics of how and why it works.

Binomial distribution and standard deviation can be drawn upon and used in an even chance game, because they have their roots in science and they do hold true for a large spin sample. Argue this all you want, but being able to automatically track 100s of spins and wait for triggers to occur before placing a bet, means you enter the game when it is favourable for the player, you are in the 'sweet spot' so to speak and betting is alot more efficient and draw downs are much less.

I have never once argued the maths can be beaten,- never, what I have put forward is that if we use logic and reason we can implement systems and strategies that manipluate the odds and give you an advanatage, especially in a game of even chance (BV no zero). In this very section of the forum you are testing an E-C strategy, well any mathemathician would tell you that it is impossible to win with outside bets, given the -2.7%, you cannot possibly gain an edge. Yet as you mention there is a tendecy for numbers to clump and streak, which us true, so you find that maybe you can manipulate the odds in your favour. The software also has a strategy that capitalises on this phenomenon.

N6 I think you miss the point of the software. It is not the BOT that does the winning, the BOT simply interfaces the systems and strategies and automates the whole process. The BOT is only as good as what is under its hood. All systems are rule based, whether mechanincal or dynamic, so your point is void. You dont sit down at a table and have no idea what your strategy is, do you? Of course not, you have some rules or ideas in mind on how you will play, dependant on how the session unfolds - the systems and strategies within the software are no different, of course they have defined parameters, but these are highly configurable by the user and they also react to what the numbers are doing.

Sam lost money yes, but he also turned his intitial BR over 4 times, so one could argue he also won money. If someone from your study group, went to their local casinso and put into practice what you taught them, and tripled their BR, you would say your ideas worked very well. If that same person went back the next day and had a bad session, got frustrated, let emotion get in the way and lost the lot, would you say your system is a failure and was a victim of randomness? Of course you wouldnt, you would say losing sessions will come from time to time, but they key to being successful in the long term is knowing when to quit a session that is going against you. Many people are winning daily with this software, myself included, but I know you do not belive that.

N6, I understand your skepticism to a point, but don't agree with the prickliness of how you convey it.

Quote from: Tiago2
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/other-software-for-roulette/super-roulette-software-real-money-play/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/other-software-for-roulette/super-roulette-software-real-money-play/)

See link above, check the post dates.
Started on April 14th with €30 on June 28th has now got €780 in the casino (withdrew money several times). Three months. 26 times more than his initial amount he started with still in the casino to use.

Sorry, I simply don't believe a word that man writes.

Or anyone's bot propaganda. This guy The Force has spoke to users of your bot. None of them are winning consistently.

Your bot plays systems because it is programmed to follow rules. It can't think, although you might have convinced yourself it can. The only strategies that can defeat roulette are adaptive ones that are about as close to autonomy as you can get, meaning they are not governed by rules. Instead of being designed to circumvent randomness, they use the natural flow of randomness. Of course, randomness can't be predicted, so when and what to bet can't be built into any system. It's exploited through human intervention and ability. Short of physics-based methods, adaptive strategies are the only viable winning solution. I highly, highly doubt your bot implements an adaptive strategy, because if you or any of your cronies had the talent to devise one you wouldn't be selling bots would you? You're concerned with binomial distribution and standard deviation...means nothing to me because it's all fallacious. You can't use binomial distribution to gain an edge. Poisson maybe.

Its more than just a bot, its an entire community behind it.

N6, to quote you from nolinks://vlsroulette.com/law-of-the-third/a-quick-word-on-system-theory/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/law-of-the-third/a-quick-word-on-system-theory/)

When the conditions are deemed favourable the method becomes fully operational and attacks, following a hypothetical game tree that adopts a solid shape and changes in real-time to show how the attack is progressing (compared to how it should) and what counteraction is to be taken if things start going wrong.

There is a similer concept already inplemented into SR. I've spent years developing bots, coding countless betting styles, implementing various ideas and yet all the while keeping focus on the core of the roulette-bot, re-writing, re-fining then re-writing it again. And thats what has the power to drive SR. A car without it's engine is useless, an engine without the car isn't much good either. The toughest, the most complex methods of play can be coded into a bot, adaptive or non adaptive. I've spent years building a framework for roulette betting strategy styles to be easily created, tested, refined and tweaked.

Quote N6
Remember that the only bots around at the moment implement flawed progression systems. You talk about bot users...yes, I believe there are many, as there are many people here who are desperate for a solution. They want it given to them. Few of them are willing to work hard for it. Many think bots are the answer. But they, and their users, are a joke. None of them will win over the long haul, and that makes them a waste of time. They're pretty much a 100% scam.


You speak like you actually know what you're talking about, SR is not just a bot SR is a community. With countless hours spent as a group discussing ideas, finding out what works and what doesn't, we've had online conferances and so much more to improve SR. We come up with an idea we test it, if it holds water we refine it. If its pure trash we chuck it. Ask the members of SR forum, ask them about the effort put into SR, the ideas coded into the bot that made it better or the ones ones coded then tested with the bot only to be trashed because it didn't work. I know you wont because you detest the idea of bots. Corrected if Im wrong, but if I remember correctly you've been playing roulette for over 20 years. You've started when computers weren't much more powerful than todays calculators. You've dug yourself a rut, you've got cozy in it and found what works for you. Doesn't mean thats the only thing that works. You're limiting yourself now N6. The human mind is extraodinary and it has something computers don't. The power to think, and thats why man created computers to help them think and work quicker.

Quote N6
because if you or any of your cronies had the talent to devise one you wouldn't be selling bots would you

If you're so high and mighty and full of great ideas why are you here? If you know how to play roulette and win consistently in the long haul why are you still here?! and sharing those ideas to the world? I can't answer that for you, but in my opinion great ideas can always be improved. You may spend years developing a great way to play roulette, release it to the public and someone will improve it! That other someone doesn't have to start from scratch, no, he's got an already thought out idea with hundreds of hours put into it that he doesn't have to go through himself to reach that level. Why release a great roulette bot to the public, to improve it!

You're not just tring to discredit Matt and the hard work he's done to launch SR, you're discrediting an entire community who (gosh) dares to think differently than you. Yes we use bots, we've grown sick and tired of tracking everything down with pen and paper. So much time and effort spent doing it manually when researching and seeing outcomes to ideas are just a click away. There's got to be a coder behind it yes, thats me. By all means don't think coding is easy, don't you dare think coding ideas into a program is simple, a waste of time and the lazy's mans way out of it! Once its coded what would have taken weeks or even months to do manually is done in seconds! Months may still be spend developing an idea but it be alot less developed had we not used a bot. I've spent years developing bots and increasing their potential, and to have someone who, from the way he writes, knows virtually nothing of what a bot is capable off and rants of like a know-it-all-maniac discrediting hard work, work that one (me and countless others) has put so much blood into... by all means N6 stay in your study group section where you actually help others move forwards.

N6, civility is obviously not your strong suit, once again you need to resort to personal attacks against me and the people who have helped develop the software, we are all cronies now? 

You also are calling Tom a liar. Tom is one of the most honest people I know (sometimes maybe too honest) and he calls it exactly how he sees it. He is affiliated with the software in no way whatsoever, he has indeed won that much (started at 30E, in fact he is now at 1000E) and I and other's can confirm this. But obviously it matters not to you, as you will only believe what you want to.

I also find it a nonsensical argument when people say "if you find a winning strategy, why would you sell it?" Why wouldn't you? Why not have two potential income streams rather than one? No need for smoke and mirrors about some secret strategy. I have invested time and money into developing and testing the software, and I know it has a value, hence it commands a sale price - simple commerce. To label me a scammer because I am selling something is just a sign of immaturity and jealously.

The Force says he has spoken to people who have lost money, which you believe readily, yet when I tell you many people (including myself) are winning money you instantly dismiss it and insinuate fabrication. Once someone buys the software I have no control over how they use it. I give guidelines on recommended bank rolls and advocate people practice alot in fun mode and with the saved spins feature so they can see how a game flows and can change. If a tradesman slams a nail into his finger, does he blame the nail gun?

The BOT is not hard coded, it is entirely user configured. I give the logic and reasoning behind why the strategies work and the player then configures it to play according to a basic template, but it is not stricly defined in any way. Yes I have looked at the poisson distribution, and I agree it can could also be used to advantage, the software is constantly being developed so we may explore this in the future. Saying that, standard deviation in respects to binomial distribution and zscore calculations are proving to be wonderful markers to identify betting opportunities.

N6 as dogmatic as you are that there is no way this software can do as it claims, I am prepared to put myself out there, as I know that it does exactly what it purports to. How about if I organise a trial for you and you can give it a run for a day, a week, a month, however long, no strings attached, report back whatever you like...

Matt

N6 as dogmatic as you are that there is no way this software can do as it claims, I am prepared to put myself out there, as I know that it does exactly what it purports to. How about if I organise a trial for you and you can give it a run for a day, a week, a month, however long, no strings attached, report back whatever you like...



Well now this would be the acid test....How about it No6  ???
The Spiders Kiss

QuoteSorry, I simply don't believe a word that man writes.

Ohh dear... looks like my name is mud again.

There was a time when they said the earth was flat.
There was a time when they said the earth was the center of the universe.
There was a time when they believed the 4 minute mile could never be broken.
There was a time when man though that he could never achieve flight.

Time and experience have proven all these to be incorrect.
Plus, someone had the balls to go out and do it, regardless of what other people said.

Did you know that Marconi was locked up in a asylum
for even telling people that radio waves could be carried threw air.

What does that say about my claims?
Are they true? Or a bunch of baloney.

Lets see.

Some will say that I am liar.
A peddler.
A scam artist.

Some will say.
F that. This guy has been upfront.
And put all he has on the table.

Personally...

I could not give a rats behind what you think.

My bank balance and me are on very good terms.
So make up your own mind.

Before someone else does.

QuoteN6 as dogmatic as you are that there is no way this software can do as it claims, I am prepared to put myself out there, as I know that it does exactly what it purports to. How about if I organise a trial for you and you can give it a run for a day, a week, a month, however long, no strings attached, report back whatever you like...

Well now this would be the acid test....How about it No6  Huh?
The Spiders Kiss

Does that mean you have the Bot?
And have used it?

N6 this person uses a bot as well.
Are his result untrue?

nolinks://vlsroulette.com/testing-zone/first-test-of-my-new-toy!-(the-bot-tiago-made-for-me)/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/testing-zone/first-test-of-my-new-toy!-(the-bot-tiago-made-for-me)/)

The bot is similar to Super Roulette.
Looks the same.
Different system.
That is the beauty of it.
Any system can be coded into it.

Just about ready to go to play on a live wheel.

No mate.It doesn't.
I am not a fan of bots either if you want to know the truth.I feel roulette is a game that you need to "feel" and I dont think you can do that with a bot  yet ...but neither am I as highly sceptical of them as No6 is, cos I can see that maybe you may be able to make a quick short term profit whilst the strategy you are playing is in motion.
My point was that if No6 tested it and he said it worked..well then I guess we would all have our eyes opened.
The Spiders Kiss

Mr Chips should read this crap. He thinks Spike and Gizmotron are the comedy duo. The real comedy is right here.

Someone has been editing my posts - I know it for a fact because the time stamps have changed, from when I actually made the post to when I apparently did. What's that all about? Did I break any rules or what? No, of course I didn't. I said nothing untoward yet some tyrant is twisting my words. It is unacceptable to be censored like this. It's a roulette forum not the goddamn general assembly. Now, what kind of people would do that? Scammers?

Quote from: n6
You are basically all scammers and would lie out of your teeth to make a sale

N6, I take it this means you are not interested in testing the software?

Matt

I don't know one end of a bot to the other. I admit to complete ignorance as to how they work, but I am not slow in seeing
the possibility of a betting opportunity, which could well be in the players favour.
 
I don't know if the bots can make selective bets, by that I mean after x number of spins the particular system activates a
trigger to commence placing bets. There are certain systems that would be impractical at a b & m casino, but ideal for use
in a bot.
 
I understand that on line casino's are getting wise to players placing a number of bets over a long period of time, suspecting
the use of bots and selective betting could well get round that problem.
 
I am willing to learn as to what bots can and can't do, but it seems to me there are endless opportunities using systems that
work particularly well with bots.
 
Mr Chips

coming soon to a live dealer near you... 8)
Matt

(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fsuper-roulette.com%2Fupload%2Flive_play_db.bmp&hash=bc4a44a7519f548e03706d0e71d4dfef802b622b)
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fsuper-roulette.com%2Fupload%2Fdbgraph.bmp&hash=25d2aabc6657ed4c026921aa02d9a07b363ee518)

For a time, I will only post on my own threads.  I am going to publish my latest graph.  Notice how the line dips into the negative and then makes a steady climb to the win limit of 5E?  This graph is most representative of those I see on a daily basis.

Victor once spoke of a "positive tram" and how you should learn to identify them.  The upward swing of this graph is a positive tram.  It could just as easily be a negative one, or one that just goes down a ways and then bounces around at about level for hours.  After that trot it will either go wildly up or wildly down.  This is when I loose.  Though it is wrong, I am learning to pause the bot while on a negative tram.  I just go away for a hour.  I do this when I am down about 20E.  When I return, I try to sit with the thing a while and see what it's likely to do.  I firmly believe this thing could be programmed to "go virtual" as Victor used to say until the tram became positive.

What has this to do with anything?  Just this.  I am now running a RNG.  Yet, I have seen this same thing happen in real play on a real wheel.  As winkel said, it makes no difference as to RNG or live.  So while numbers may be displayed from a random source, wheel or RNG, they tend to follow the same patterns.  If we can identify these patterns, more to the good. 

Here's the graph.  Note it's about 1,000 spins, not 4,000 like yesterdays.  Yesterday was a bear!

Sam

[attachimg=#]

Thanx for updating sam  :good:

Well, there is reason to celebrate in Botsville tonight.  I probably shouldn't, but I will anyway.  

An idea came along and Tiago liked it so much he dropped his hamburger and immediately coded it into the bot.  Matt ran it through his 1,000,000 RNG spins and here's the result.

By the way, it's FLAT-BETTING!  I have no idea how it's done; don't really care.  For those of you who notice there is no profit in the window, that is because Tiago has incorporated a blazing-fast test feature which produces nothing but the graph.  You may look at the graph to see the figures.

[attachimg=#]

Dear Twocat.

Looking at the pattern of the graph line, no way that is a flat betting system. I don't in any way want to offend u! But from my point of view the graph is behaving abnormal for flat bets. And i will tell u why. The profit indicated by the line is not always the same (wich is a strong indicator for a flat betting system). I know there are different bets with different profits and that even with a flat betting system profits don't always have to be the same, but the variance is too swingy. There are also a lot of falls and those have different lengts indicating a different betsize. 2 reasons to believe some sort of progression is used.

I hope we can politely debate about it. I can only advise others to do the same.

Kind Regards,
Skrizy.

Please tell us about the bot's so-called AI. I have asked serious questions before about the bot. But I have received no answers whatsoever. Now, what is this? Are you actually trying to help people with the bot by answering serious questions, or are you just marketing it by posting graphs?

So my serious questions are: tell the forum about the bot's AI feature. I have looked on the site. As usual the description of the AI is about two sentenences and contains nothing but some pap about standard deviation and averages. From what I can make, the bot is still using precise maths to calculate bets, therefore it is following rules and the betting process is still mechanical. Also, please define a hot sector. How does the bot define a hot sector and why and how does it attack it?

These questions apply to anyone.

Quote from: Skrizy on July 12, 2009, 08:23:56 AM
Dear Twocat.

Looking at the pattern of the graph line, no way that is a flat betting system. I don't in any way want to offend u! But from my point of view the graph is behaving abnormal for flat bets. And I will tell u why. The profit indicated by the line is not always the same (wich is a strong indicator for a flat betting system). I know there are different bets with different profits and that even with a flat betting system profits don't always have to be the same, but the variance is too swingy. There are also a lot of falls and those have different lengts indicating a different betsize. 2 reasons to believe some sort of progression is used.

I hope we can politely debate about it. I can only advise others to do the same.

Kind Regards,
Skrizy.

Here is my guess...  When using flat bets, on a win or loss, the appearance on the BR balance graph will have an angle to it.  That angle will be slightly tilted to the right and be going up or down.  Then, between bets there is a flatline, and then again, on a win or loss it either goes up or down with an angle tilting slightly to the right.

However, any BR balance graph has to "compact" that graph as it gets "deeper" into the amount of spins it has to graph.

So, at spin 20 the angle of the br balance graph line will be easily visible on a win or loss.

At spin 1000, it will be less visible.

At spin 10000, even less so.

At spin 1,000,000 what happens is that any angle is almost imperceptible.  So, what happens is if there are two, three, four, even five wins in a row using flat betting, and they are all done back to back (or very close to back to back) the balance graph will have no way of showing any "angle". 

What I mean is, it will look like the graph shot up 5 units all in one win...when in fact it took five wins to get it.

Open up rxtreme and flat bet for 20 spins.  Make yourself win 5 times in a row, don't bet for 5 spins, then lose 5 times in a row, then don't bet for 5 spins, then just win in a chop sequence back and forth.

Then, let RXtreme run for 1,000,000 spins...even 100,000 spins and then go back and look at the BR balance graph again.

You'll see it begins to look more and more like you got those 5 wins all in one shot...same goes for the losses.

You'll also see those 5 spins you went in between without betting become almost invisible on the graph.

I believe that graph is flat betting...if you do what I've said, you will too.

Alright, I'm not doing anything at the present moment, so I figured I'd save you the trouble and do what I instructed myself...

Here is the first BR balance graph.  I spun 5 times without betting.  Then, I won 5 flat bets in a row (on red).  Then, I spun 5 times without betting, then I lost 5 bets in a row (on red).  Then I spun 5 times without betting.  Then, I flat bet on red and won/lost in a chop patten for 11 spins.  Here is what the BR balance graph looks like.

[attachimg=#]

Here is that same graph, but at 7k spins:   (you'll see it looked like I won, then lost 5 units all at the same time)

[attachimg=#]

Thanks for the clarification, rjeaton1, nice work! :thumbsup:

TwoCatSam,
Congratulations, sir... really impressive results, your new idea is good obviously! :yes:
Keep up the good work and keep us updated with information about your further tests. Appreciated.

Good luck.

I will be happy to answer any questions I can.

First, this is not my idea and none of the things in the program are my ideas.  I could not explain AI to you if my life depended on it.  Tiago has explained it thoroughly and I will readily admit--I simply cannot grasp it. 

As to the graph, Matt is the one who made it with 1,300,000 spins he has.  He is the one who says it is flat betting.  I truly believe him as I have his 1,300,000 spins and could check it.  By the way, he posted something once I could not believe so I asked for the spins.  He sent them and I ran the test robot.  Exactly, to the penny, the same results on two different settings.

Frankly, I do not understand hot sectors as hot sectors are part of a wheel and RNG has no wheel.  I think they just had to call it something.

As for myself personally I do not use hot sectors, sectors or AI, although I do test about 4,000 to 5,000 spins per day with AI.  Whatever it is and whatever it does, it is most impressive.  By the end of July I should have something like 150,000 spins cataloged into trots of from 900 to 4,000 spins each.  I plan to do a complete study on them with different settings and report.  Perhaps I should publish that here.

I am using a feature that was one of the very first in the bot.  I found it to be quite trustworthy and am happy to continue to play real money with it.  I have learned to use Victor's "tram" idea and when I see I am on a negative tram, I pause the bot and wait for two hours.  While each number is randomly selected, the tram will often go from negative to positive and then onward to my goal. 

RNG numbers, or at least those from Bet Voyager, follow very identifiable trends.  Consider the numbers produced as tiny drops of white paint.  Now consider them arranging themselves into a shape--a cat for example.  That's this trot; the next trot may be a dog. 

Sam

Using #10 bets on all bets.  Granted I hit a lot of single numbers.  I would cut the whole total in half to be realistic.  Call it #810.  But it is real, believe it or not.

The blue line that ends at about #2400 is the one that will buy the beer.  It is the AI.  It is not luck; the other is mostly luck.

[attachimg=#]

To anyone interested:

I said I would get back to zero and I did plus .75 Euro.  I could quit now and be ahead .75 Euro for six months work.  By the way, here is the screen shot.  

[attachimg=#1]

While I cannot give away how the bot works, I can explain a couple of things.  I am approaching 300,000 spins for the settings I've been studying.  I know this is still small but it is significant.  I deposited 100 Euro and lost it.  I deposited another 100 and lost that.  I deposited a third 100 and that's the one I went back up to 300 on.  I went as low as 60 Euro.  

Bear in mind that I am only betting pennies, so you must multiply  every figure by 100.  I went as low as 6,000 units and I'm up now to 30,075 units.  The 75 units is profit.

I am going to tell you a couple of things I learned before I found the bot and therefore cannot be giving away secrets.  Victor is spot on when the talks of positive and negative trams.  Using this bot I can see a tram taking place and know when to get on or get off.  Virtual betting is incorporated into the bot, so we can just sit and wait for the opportune time to enter the fray.  Here is an example of a negative tram:

[attachimg=#2]

And here is an example of a positive tram:

[attachimg=#3]

Now, before Spike weighs in with the old saw he used to use on Victor, yes, I know that an upward tram can turn downward on the next spin.  Or vice-versa.  Tiago incorporated into the bot at my suggestion a pause which can be set by the player.  I set mine at -20 Euro and if I hit that--and I usually don't--the bot pauses.  I have learned that waiting is like starting all over, except you just continue instead of starting over.  I let it sit for two hours and then sit down to watch it play.  Most times, the negative tram will go on for a short time and then I hit what I call "stasis".  The graph just goes up and down for a few hundred spins, neither gaining or losing ground.  Then it will either go up or down for real.  It usually goes up.  And I win.

Here is an example of stasis:
[attachimg=#4]

Notice how it goes down, then bounces around, then goes up?  This is the name of the game.  If you study the graph, you will see I went from 173 Euro down.  The bot would pause at 153 or -20.  Notice how the graph goes down a little and then into to stasis and then upward? 

I still feel I would never have lost the first 200 Euro had I not switched by betting mode during play and had much trouble with the casino.  Others on the SR forum had the same trouble.  Enough griped and Bet Voyager fixed it.  I have learned how to avoid errors.  Usually the bot runs about two hours to get my 5 Euro win.  I am currently winning at the rate of 10 Eruo per day betting pennies.  I am happy with that.  Allowing for those rare times when I do not win and lose 50 Euro,  I can still easily clear 200 Euro per month or about $300 American.

So if I'm a shill for Super Roulette, so be it.  Thomas Grant caused the second fellow to win 10,000 Euro to come over and buy the bot.  I'm sure he's just sick over his investment.  Another well-known member of this forum has devised a way to grow his bankroll in even a slower method than I.  

As many of you know, I've reached the point on this forum where I just don't give a damn.  I've been honest.  As long as I'm here I'll be honest.

Samster

The graph just goes up and down for a few hundred spins, neither gaining or losing ground. >>

Then the system you've got programmed into the stupid bot is crap. How would play such a system in a real casino? Find a system that has decent variance and you won't need the bot as a crutch to pretend you're getting somewhere. A bot is just a Corvette with a lawn mower engine in it if the system is crap.

I'm sure you think I'm harsh but this fantasyland baloney just pisses me off, its going backwards, not forwards.

Thanks for sharing your results with us Sam.

Your honesty is 100% appreciated.

We know whatever the outcome, we can rely on your bonafide reports. That alone is worth gold  :good:

Kudos and keep those posts coming.

Your friend,
Victor

Hi Sam,

I have to say you are on the right track here.

You will never find a system that will constantly win BUT, I have a baccarat system in a bot and I use it to first find an entry point first with fun money.

What I mean is I wait for the end of a negative tram (as you call it) and then start it running with real money and grab 50 units (positive tram). I can do this every day with no problems.


In my opinion this is the only way SYSTEMS can be used to get 100% winning sessions.


Regards
D

Hi TCS,

I have tested my statistics by looking at the graphs to find hints when they will grow or go down or go sideways.

I saw that whit the fifty-fifty-results there are too few hints.
If you put graphs of winning/losing - bets on straight numbers, you can see what is going on.
As I told before: If I have lost a 13-13 bet 2 times I stop playing it until it is back on winning-road.
when I put -13 in the graph and plus 23 it shows very clarly the tendency to go in or to go out.

If you have some time make such a statistic and watch. (If you will ever be back playing the G.U.T)

br
winkel

Victor, Dairmaid, and winkel

Thanks for the kind words.  Victor, it is your theory of "going virtual" that sparked the whole idea.  Maybe you never coined it, but I read it first as written by you.

Dairmaid uses a bot for Baccarat.  Great!  Wonder how many others use one?

winkel..good to hear from you.  Will I get back to the G.U.T.?  Absolutely!  Soon Americans will be able to play on-line legally and I will play the G.U.T. in several casinos.  I will also play the 4Selecta and my Chicco/Muprh.  Naturally, I'll run the bot, also.

Hey, Mr. Spike.....

You may be as harsh to me as you wish.  I am no longer a moderator or an administrator.  Fire away.  Someday when I'm not busy I'll spend a few hours trying to muster up the energy to care.

Spike, you could be a worthwhile contributor to this forum!

Sam

QuoteSpike, you could be a worthwhile contributor to this forum!

Sam

When?

Hey..when the hell did you stop being an admin?? That sucks.....

Coxx16

I gave up the admin position a couple of weeks ago and the moderator's position today.  I have philosophical differences with others about how the forum should be managed.  Now, when people write things that should get them banned forever, I don't have to go to bed worried about it.  It is no longer my issue; having fun with this forum and roulette is.

I think I will be a better person for it.  I hope so.  And thanks for your kind words.

Sam

Quote from: TwoCatSam on August 21, 2009, 12:35:54 AM
Coxx16

I gave up the admin position a couple of weeks ago and the moderator's position today.  I have philosophical differences with others about how the forum should be managed.  Now, when people write things that should get them banned forever, I don't have to go to bed worried about it.  It is no longer my issue; having fun with this forum and roulette is.

I think I will be a better person for it.  I hope so.  And thanks for your kind words.

Sam

Ohh well, TwoCat.
Be sad to see your expertise gone.
Even though we clashed at times.
Still have great respect for your views.

Still going to post your results.
And that is a good thing.
So not gone for good then.

Up 260 Euro in the past two days using a new strategy:  Sam and The Bot.  I think we did good!  :clapping:  :yahoo:

[attachimg=#]

Hey Spike

I'm no longer a moderator so quit holding back!  Let 'er rip! 

Well done TwoCat.
Glad to see you back up again.
Some nice features in this bot.
It just keeps getting better and better.
Some members providing excellent ideas.
And making it even more reliable.
Go for it.
Now that your no longer a mod.
You can also tell it like it is.

T Grant, is your avatar a pic of you or a ventiloquist's dummy? I can't tell, bad light or something.

Quote from: Spike on August 22, 2009, 12:59:16 AM
T Grant, is your avatar a pic of you or a ventiloquist's dummy? I can't tell, bad light or something.

It's me in a suit.
Took my mum to see Phantom of the Opera.
The digital camera that was used wasn't the best.

A while back I made this statement on the challenge to stevetracker:

"And, yes, a plan is afoot--awaiting Matt's and Victor's approval--wherein I will put up by using the Super Roulette Bot to double a bankroll.  If I can't double the bankroll, I'll pay Victor 100 Euro toward the forum and I will permanently leave the forum.

I am 95% sure I can double any bankroll using that bot!"

Well, that didn't fly for reasons I'll not go into.  So I decided to do it anyway.  The goal is to double the bankroll.  I said I could double any bankroll...........


Here's the beginning of the test:

[attachimg=#1]

I'm sure some of you will notice that I am down somewhat from the 300+ Euro I had when I last posted (see reply #46 for screen shot.  I am down 280 Euro from that point. This is due to my own stupidity and not anything the bot did or anything connected to the bot.

Here is the end of the test:

[attachimg=#2]

For those of you who say, "Wow, a whole 21.5 Euro he made!" let me remind you of this.  I bet pennies, so I went up 21.5 X 100 or 21,500 units.  How many spins did it take to accomplish this?  About 3,000 actual bets.  This particular setting bets every spin; never pauses or passes. So after 3,000 spins I'm up 21,500 units or 7.176 units per spin on average.  Now for those of you who say I'm lying and that I faked the results--I'm good with that.  Those of you who believe I faked the results would believe it no matter what.

For those of you saying I'm selling a bot, let me say this.  I'm telling the truth on something I've tested.  If that's selling, so be it.  I get no money if ten of you buy it tomorrow.  Last week a member of this forum asked me if I would recommend he buy the bot.  I told him I would not recommend anything BUT if he did buy it, I would walk him through the procedure to make his investment back.  He bought the bot and I have not heard from him.

I can almost guarantee a 60% win rate with this bot.  For ever ten bankrolls I have, I will lose four and win twelve.  I'm up two!  If they happen to be thousand-Euro bankrolls, well that's pretty good.

Using this bot, I have doubled my bankroll so many times I can't recall.  And I have 43 Euro to show for it.  Reminds me of a line from a song by Jimmy Buffett:  "I made enough money to buy Miami and I pissed it all away again."  

I have discovered my problem psychologically and I intend to write a post on it alone.  It may help someone else who constantly does this.

TwoCatSam

Well done Sam.

Cheers
D

Diarmaid

Thanks.  I was up to 1300 Euro once.  Should have doubled it then!!

Sam

Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2009, 11:47:35 PM
Diarmaid

Thanks.  I was up to 1300 Euro once.  Should have doubled it then!!

Sam

did you lose the €1300

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! 

I still had 21.5 left!

I made 1,000 Euro playing a Martingale progression and lost it all plus all the bot had won save 21.5.  I'm 63, been gambling for years; you'd think I'd know better.

Sam

Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 11, 2009, 03:01:25 AM

..been gambling for years; you'd think I'd know better.

Sam

Sam
Im sure we have all said this at one time or another ...your not on your own there mate  :)...that ole rush of blood of the head can be a hard one to control!!

The Spiders Kiss

Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2009, 10:06:16 PM

Last week a member of this forum asked me if I would recommend he buy the bot.  I told him I would not recommend anything BUT if he did buy it, I would walk him through the procedure to make his investment back.  He bought the bot and I have not heard from him.

Sam,

I assume you are talking about me. Didn't know you had gotten back from vacation. I checked into the forum yesterday and found your message. I'm doing pretty good, but I'd love to hear how you do it. Was talking about the positive and negative tram yesterday with matt so inevitably your name came up   ;)

I'll pm you.
Vix

vix

Practically everything I know is written the that forum under "The TwoCat Thread".  Time will not permit me to teach by e-mail as I will be answering the same questions over and over again.  On my thread there, I will post my settings I use and how I play it. 

When you start to play and run into something, let me know and we will converse via the forum.  Please save all your spins so I can analyze them.  I do not suggest running the bot over a million spins as we don't do a million spins.  We do from a few hundred to a few thousand. 

Here is how I suggest you name your trots.  Today is September 13, 2009 and I just finished my first trot of 1,000 spins.  I would name the file 9.13.9.1 1000.  It is a good idea to write protect your file after you save it.  Always, always, always, clear your spin cache before starting a new trot.  If you don't, SR will add them together.

Sam


Sam

ok thanks for the tips  :good:
c u there then...
vix

VLS People

Just wanting to touch base and stir some people up who seem to have grown far too complacent!

I said I would report if I lost, remember?  Well, I almost did.  I went down to 8 cents and am fighting my way back.  I am at 2.88 now.   (It's not the money you win; it's the winning itself that counts.)  Yes, I recall that I lost my first two 100 Euro bankrolls.  In time......

On another note, Bet Voyager has changed their bet limits drastically.  They were, for even chances, .01 to 1,000 Euro.  Recently they dropped the top to 100 Euro.  Wonder why?  Could it be that some guys with bots were cutting into their profits by betting pennies and winning with huge progressions.  Naw!  That couldn't be it!

Sam

1 to 100.000 is too large of a betting range for the EC's. They were sooner or later going to realize this and make the adjustment.

Seriously, Sam, you've already lost hundreds of real cash-money euros, went down to 8 cents and have "fought" your way back to 2.88? Even after all your preaching of positive and negative trams? It's farcical and the whole thing is just an illusion. Huge progressions only mask a flawed bet selection. It doesn't matter if you're betting pennies or grains of sand, in the end they all run out. And who in their right mind would sustain a progression that starts at 1 cent and ranges into hundreds of euros? You're actually talking about tens of thousands of chips. So impractical it's almost criminal. Doens't it tell you that the bot's so-called "logic" is actually a bunch of delusional BS? If I were betting pennies I wouldn't need more than 5 euros. I really hope I'm missing something, like a satirical humour in your posts. As I type this I'm actually LOL'ing.

Ah, good!

I shook lose two of them!  Are there more?

Marven said, "1 to 100.000 "--umm, too many zeros there, Marv.  I take it you mean 100.00 or one hundred Euro.  (Please be honest and don't edit!)

It was .01 to 1,000 Euro......THEN they dropped it.  Was there something in my perfectly plain English that threw you or did you just not read the post closely enough?

Number 6

Your worries about my financial status in life are much appreciated!  OK, I'm down 300 Euro or about $450.00.  Yes Sir!  That's just about to break me!  Here's one you can really get your teeth into:  For 2009 I must be down a couple of thousand, American.  Geez, Mr. Bean Counter, what do you think of that?  

Any of you ever wonder--in your better moments--why I would say that?  Because I don't get my pleasure in life by coming on a forum and trying to convince people I am something/someone I'm not.  You guys still don't get it:  I'm in this game FOR THE FUN OF IT!  To me, it is great fun to lose down to eight cents and battle your way back.  Did you never see ROCKY?  Do you ever ask the golfer with a $500 putter how much he's "up" for the year?

When you make fun of positive and negative trams, you are making fun of Victor as this is his terminology, not mine.  Tell him they don't work.  

Now, I'm up to 4.75 in one night.  Not double, but substantial.  I'd love to see anyone start with eight pennies and go to 4.75.  Now if the math boys will be honest, they will tell you it's not the amount that counts, it's the increase from A to B.  That is quite astonishing, don't you think?

I'm not saying I am prescient, but I did say bots were the future for online players, Lanky.  I also said the casinos would take counter-measures against us and this one has.  Now Super Roulette can play at ANY Playtech casino--and there are hundreds--so the "action" can be spread around.  Yes, the Playtech "LIVE" wheel.

I am sending Victor $50 American to support the forum this month.  How many of you guys who are making so much money from roulette can say the same?  Victor, I wish you'd confirm this when you get the Paypal so these fellow will know I did what I said.

I thank you guys for your comments and I appreciate your keeping it civil.  I have no bones with disagreements, just harsh, ugly people!

"I'm TwoCatSam
I'm a TwoCat man.
I play the TwoCat Shuffle
Anytime I can.

I shuffle to the left
I shuffle to the right.
It's running on the bot
SO I SHUFFLE ALL NIGHT!"

Sam

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Personal to Victor

Please confirm this.  These guys seem to think I have a credibility gap.  You and that "other guy" (he he) know better!

Quote from: TwoCatSam on October 23, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
Marven said, "1 to 100.000 "--umm, too many zeros there, Marv.  I take it you mean 100.00 or one hundred Euro.  (Please be honest and don't edit!)

Actually Sam I was speaking in terms of 0.01 Euro units, I.e. 0.01 Euro = 1 unit

The range for even chances used to be 0.01 to 1,000 Euro, giving 1 to 100,000 units as a betting range. :)

Marven

Sorry, Bro!  It was the period that threw me!  We are used to 100,000 not 100.000..............

By the way,

I was wrong on my 4.75; it was actually 4.25 so I sat down and upped it to 4.77.  That's eight units to 477 units.  Let me do the math!  That is equal to multiplying your bankroll by almost a factor of 60!

Sam

Well, the "trams" don't seem to be having any affect on your BR expect a detrimental one. According to your reports they don't seem to work.  And if they do, I'd actually dread to know how much you'd be down by now without them. So you're down 300 euros, what is that? You're talking about 30,000 units, right? Just about says it all in my book. Still LOL'ing. And it's great that you can now play at playtech...it means you get to lose even quicker. Good luck.

The TwoCat shuffle.
Looking forward to seeing that in action.
Best of luck.
Keep us all posted.

Number 6

As an American, I cannot play at Playtech.  I am still at Bet Voyager playing on a friend's account.  I have three of them actually.  Three people I'd send a hundred Euro to in a minute and never worry.

I am proposing a test to the Administrator, Lanky, the Co-administrator, Xman1970 and Victor.  If they accept, I will either pass of fail.  If I fail, I'll cease to speak of the bot or Super Roulette.  If I win, I will propose a second, real-money test to be performed with all three of the above looking over my shoulder. There is a 95% chance I will double my bankroll before I lose it.  Since only one person can put money in this account, if it grows he can testify it grew through winnings and not deposits.

If I win, Victor keeps the 200 Euro.  If I lose, Victor, I will NOT leave the forum as I said before.  I will just not speak of the bot anymore.

Should we put this to a forum vote?  Should I just shut up?  Despite what Number 6 and some others believe, I have no financial interest in this and don't stand to make a penny.  All I want to do is show that it can be done.  Hmmmmmm.....What if I personally guaranteed someone a refund if they bought the bot and could not make their money back?  I could deposit the money with Victor in advance.   I'll have to think on that one.  I don't even know what the bot sells for!  Now there's an LOL.

Sam

Current price for Super Roulette standard is $249.00 USD

Current price for Super Roulette Live is $375.00 USD

Now if you consider it to be expensive.
Compare it to CasinoBusters.
They are charging $1200 for a system or systems.
Or what I paid Murph for his crappy systems. $1000

2 people have made over $10,000 with this bot.
I happen to be one of those people.

As for what other members have made.
Well you will have to ask them.
It's Roulette.
It's RNG or Live play.

TwoCat has done well with it at times.
And lost with it.

The new version is about to be released.
With many new features.
And improvements.

Sam, listen, your offer is quite generous, yet remember, this isn't for "Victor to keep" but for the forum to have some "cushion" either for better resources or to cover shortage for a given month.

I suggest you get to make the test after we get "really" back: on monday we move to an arse-kicking datacenter in Chicago; thanks to your extra we raise connectivity from 100Mbit to 1000Mbit, a x10 increase :)

After the initial void from visitor's Internet Providers to point to the new location, I'm getting everything back, including the chart tag and of course attachments, downloads, etc.

Then the forum is ready for hardcore load.

Hope this gets to a fine result.

Regards.

Quote from: thomasgrant on October 24, 2009, 01:12:17 AM
Current price for Super Roulette standard is $249.00 USD

Current price for Super Roulette Live is $375.00 USD

...

TwoCat has done well with it at times.
And lost with it.

The new version is about to be released.
With many new features.
And improvements.

LOL

Victor

OK, for the forum then.  For the good of the group.  Have a look at the attached screen shot.  This morning I was at 3.25 Euro.  Tonight I'm at 22.12 Euro.  Let's talk units:  From 325 units to 2,212 units.  An increase of 1,887 units.  Let's talk percentages:  An increase of almost 700% in one day.  Who you gonna call?

I propose that in January I PayPal Victor 100 Euro for him to put in an account only he can touch.  He and he alone can withdraw.  I will give Lanky and Xman the user and password and they can check on it from time to time.  We will have to coordinate when I'm not going to be playing.

There is a 95% chance I will double the bankroll.  Victor can withdraw it all and use it for the forum as he chooses.  If the 5% devil jumps up and gets me, I shall cease to speak of the bot--any bot forever.  I'll just post about other things.  Psychology, mostly.

So, Mr. Victor, think on this one.  It's over two months until January.  I'll be scraping up my pennies!

[attachimg=#]

QuoteI will give Lanky and Xman the user and password and they can check on it from time to time.  We will have to coordinate when I'm not going to be playing.

Hi Sam.

Mate while I certainly appreciate Your trust in Me.

I will have to decline the offer......I don't want the user-name and or the password given to Me.

Thanks Mate.

Lanky.

@ 2Cats

I'm happy for you to post your results here, but like Lanky I feel that ADMIN shouldn't have access to your account.

But I do appreciate you trusting me for that position  :good:

"Mr. Sam" :) This forum and community is grateful to you a lot! I'm willing to assist in anything I can.

Be certain anything deriving from this is to be be used for the good of us; for the group to enjoy in resources.

I have no problem in having the password for your account. Anyway I'm not going to play; it is only for checking out the balance; making some screenshots for the fellows and we are all happy :)

As for the what to do shall you win = hardware, hardware and more hardware! Hooray! (I must admit I'm like a kid with a new toy when getting hardware upgrades  :blush2:).

Listen, Gentlemen, I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. 

This is for January, 2010 so we lots of time to rat it out.

Meanwhile I will post my November and December test results.  If I fail, there will be no test anyway!

The purpose of this real-money test is to show that I actually can win 10,000 units.  Makes no difference if the units are pennies or dollars. 

It will be fun!  What's the down side?  I blow a hundred Euro and I shut up about bots! 

Don't count on it.

Sam

Quote from: Marven on October 22, 2009, 11:38:33 PM
1 to 100.000 is too large of a betting range for the EC's. They were sooner or later going to realize this and make the adjustment.

(The blue is Sam's.)

Marven

Now that I understand you--or do I?  I understand you to be saying this:  A range of 1 unit to 100,000 units is too large of a betting range for the EC's.  OK, now do I have that right?

If I do NOT have it right, what do you mean?

If I DO have it right, why would a 1 to 100,000 range be too large for an EC?

Thank you.

Sam

...Regarding 1 to 100,000; it may be too large when compared to the regular table limits at the casino... Considering one purpose of table limits being not allowing players with deep enough pockets win consistently with only their huge bank and a dim probability of losing as a technique.

i.e. such range allows for a martingale of 17 elements:

1
2
4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024
2048
4096
8192
16384
32768
65536

And next one would be: 131072, which totals 17 playable steps for a martingale.

Say someone waits for 10-13 of an even chance and starts a 17-step marty... perhaps he could last quite a while before a 27 to 30 of the same color kicks-in.

What if the scheme is a D'alembert? Rise +1 on a lose. 1 to 100.000 is quite a number to try.

Quote from: TwoCatSam on October 24, 2009, 05:36:08 PM
(The blue is Sam's.)

Marven

Now that I understand you--or do I?  I understand you to be saying this:  A range of 1 unit to 100,000 units is too large of a betting range for the EC's.  OK, now do I have that right?

If I do NOT have it right, what do you mean?

If I DO have it right, why would a 1 to 100,000 range be too large for an EC?

Thank you.

Sam

They have already changed the limits on No-Zero-Roulette and on Roulette with no house edge:
new maximum 100 euro

br
winkel

Quote from: TwoCatSam on October 24, 2009, 05:36:08 PM
If I DO have it right, why would a 1 to 100,000 range be too large for an EC?

Because with a huge range available, using a progression, the probability for the event that would kill the progression would be tinier (although the house's long-term edge still exists because that event WILL happen). The player could therefore win a bit too much over a longer period, during which he might stop coming back and move to another casino before he gives all the money back. They want to keep things realistic, not too tiny of a range so they can attract progression players, but not too huge either. This is especially true for land based casinos. Why? Because in online casinos (especially RNG) people play a bigger amount of trials, it's easier to keep playing on and on, therefore the event causing depletion is more and more expected to occur.
This, by the way, is the reason why you usually find bigger ranges for low value chips, and smaller ranges for high value chips. For instance in one casino, you might find:

$0.01 - $15 Range: 1 to 1500
$2 - $100 Range: 1 to 50

This is because even if those playing $0.01 unit (using a progression) keep winning for a relatively long while, it's no big deal because they won't be winning big anyway, but rather small and slow.

So to sum up:
It's not because progression players will become long term winners, but because the casino doesn't want to wait for an event that occurs once every 3 months of non-stop betting before they can get their money back, especially when higher chip values are involved. They're running a business and they literally expect you to lose at one point. If you don't, then to them something is wrong.

Marv

Marven

So, if I understand you..........

1.  The casino had a spread of 1 to 100,000 pennies
2.  Robots happened!
3.  The casino dropped the spread from 1 to 10,000.

And in your opinion event #3 had nothing to do with #2.  It was just pure coincidence.  Had a robot never been invented, they would have still dropped the limit.

OK!

Sam

On Betvoyager did not change limit on normal roulette.
You can play on these table like before but you will lose 2 cent on every 0, that is not much.

What is "normal roulette"?

They changed limit only on zero house edge roulette, in other roulette games limit is not changed.

In a no-zero roulette there is no need of any spread, it has been proved in this paper:


nolinks:nolinks. maa. org/joma/Volume8/Siegrist/RedBlack. pdf


Anyone serious about a roulette should read it, there is also mathematically proven optimal strategy for negative expectation EC games.      Well, that strategy is bet all you have and double until reach table limit or is satisfied with win, or lose, so it is unpractical for real play, but it is proven, that your chance to win some amount is higher than that of any other strategy, like flat-betting.      In 0% house edge game, it does not matter what is your size of a bet, and if you are playing positive expectancy game, you should play with minimal amount you can, to avoid fluctuactions as much as possible (or be Kelly bettor?).     

In case of no-zero roulette, even if you could bet only one unit, it would not affect anything at all, you would just have to play a lot longer do gain profit you need.      On the other hand, it would be inpractical for bot to play ten thousands of spins to gain a target profit, and since players bankroll is limited, while casion's not, better chances of winning would  be on the side of casino.      So yes, it is good to use some kind of progressive play in no-zero roulette, probably something milder, like a variation of six point divisor (some of the graphs in this thread looks very like that), which I think is quite good, and because of zero expectancy of game, you can allow to make divisor big and little decrement it for much longer time, without fear that you will go too down.     

Well, I think that the casino wont decrease spread much more in this game, because there is a lot of stupid players, who will lose more in this game because they can bet more, and their bankroll is limited.      I have looked to the terms of that voyager casino, and they take 10% of your winnings in no house edge when you get your winnings.      Well, still better than lose 2.   7% from each bet you make.     

I wonder how would you calculate REAL house edge game when you think of this 10% rule and of the fact your bankroll is limited.      Or rather: what's the probability you would loss all, depending on your bankroll, and how much you could expect to win.      Than, put it into graph.      I think, that it would look like a gaussian distribution, with center in 0, and each result on the positive side multiplied by 0. 9, while negative side would be normal.      So in the end, the integral(=sum of values over discrete interval in this case) from -initial_bankroll to -1 would be greater(losing),  than integral from zero to infinity.      Because the integral of gaussian distribution is always one, and the left losing side is bigger, the right winning side is lower, and so this game have also negative expectation value, I suppose very low, like 0. 1% house edge or so.     

"On the other hand, it would be inpractical for bot to play ten thousands of spins to gain a target profit,"

The first thing that grabs my attention is the misspelling of "impractical".  People who write papers on any subject should at least be smart enough to use a spell check, no?  This is sloppy and unacceptable.

But to the heart of the statement:  It simply isn't true.  First, to attain my 5 Euro goal, I usually play from 800 to 3,000 spins.  Somewhere in that range I will either lose 10 Euro or win 5 Euro.  In a 10,000 spin trot I would either win about 15 to 50 Euro or lose a ton!  I don't do that as I set the loss limit to 10 Euro.

I am doing a study to determine if there is a way to reduce volatility with the robot.  I am playing a certain system that will lose if left to its own method of play.  However, over many months and over a million spins I noticed a trend.  This trend has held up no matter which computer I use or which account I play on.  It has held on virtual betting, which means the casino has no idea what the bot is betting and therefore, cannot place a losing bet intentionally.

If--let me emphasize that-----IF this trend continues it will be the key to the vault at any casino which uses a fair RNG.  Zero or no zero.  And, with a large enough bankroll and a proper spread, it will work at any casino.

Remember the word IF...........It's the biggest word in the dictionary.

TwoCatSam

"The first thing that grabs my attention is the misspelling of "impractical".      People who write papers on any subject should at least be smart enough to use a spell check, no?  This is sloppy and unacceptable.    "

I'm sorry for that, my English is not perfect enough.     I have been using INpractical for years, because IN usually negates the word following it.     My stupid mistake.     I never use spellchecking, since my english is not perfect and never will be anyway, so there is no point in solving small mistakes, when big ones are present.   I have also resigned to using a/the and use them just randomly, they are useless anyway.     And I'm too lazy to temporarily change spellchecking in Konqueror(nolinks browser in UNIX KDE desktop) to English.     Well, on this message I will try it.     And it's ok, only INpractical was bad  8) What I don't understand, why after a modify of the message spaces after dot .   are prolonged. 

Sorry mr. ore

Didn't mean to criticize you personally.  I thought when you said "paper" you meant it was published in some journal or by some mathematician in some university study or some such.

Again, sorry.

Sam

Well, I have made several experiments: one million spins flat betting one unit on red.On the first image there you can see, that there is a very long positive trend for tens thousands of spins.Then follows a very long negative trend.In another experiment the graph was choppy and not wining or losing much.On the third it ended losing -1800 units. The fourth won 1000 units.  The fifth lost again, and finally the sixth won it again.  As generator I used ranlux389 from GNU GSL library, probably one of the best(and slowest) freely available RNGs, much better than the generator in standard C/C++ (rand() function), which may be implemented poorly in some C/C++ implementations, where is used congruent generator, which is incredibly fast, and quite good for normal use in most applications, but not as near to perfect randomness as should be this.After each experiment, my application saves the state of RNG to file, so these six results can be considered to be one experiment on six millon spins, if you beleive that RNGs stream should not be broken to be able to make some conclusions.

I personally think this:

the same rules that apply in small scale, applyies also in big scale.So when it is possible to have 37/18*20 = 41 long streak on EC, which should be 6 sigma, and actually 35 have been already seen on some casino, then it is possible for negative trend to continue for 41*1000000 spins, same for positive trend of course. If you have found one, it may continue for a thousand of spins, for ten thousands, even millions, but it can end anytime. I wish you your positive trend lasts as long as possible :thumbsup:, but be aware, that you may be just a lucky person.  

Well, I tested little tweaked six point divisor and got interesting results on no-zero roulette, but nothing to relay on and be too excited from that.  Differences to normal divisor are:

1) After winning 10 units or losing 20 units we reset the system.

2) Each spin we increase the divisor by 0. 25.

It wery lightly pushes the bakroll up, but big swings are of course also possible.  It is also possible, I just found a good trend.  Well, so far no losing, but definitely some big swings down, so the possibility of failure is still there.  But there are many ways to improve, like waiting for local negative trend, and then bet more aggresively, hardly ever occured streak of sessions loses, and even so it ended up positive.  By the way, system totally failed without money management, so it is really important to reset after that 20 unit loss.  I did not tested, which is best target/stop loss for session, there may be beter one.

This is not a HG for no-zero roulette, of course.  If it was possible for a swing down, it is sure there will once come really long streak of loses for sessions, and failure will be the result.  The win +3000 units/1e6 spins is nothing nice also, but better than flat betting, and more stable so far.