Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this forum but not to roulette (although a little rusty). I played in a real casinos on my 18th birthday and had quite a few ups and downs since then (I'm now 52). Best Win: £11,500 in one hour playing in Nice, France. Worst Loss: £19,000 in one week at the "old" Loews Hotel in Monte Carlo.
About 25 years ago, I made friends with a system architect (computing) who had an unique betting formula for winning on the horses. After seeing his system in action we became close friends (as you do LOL), and I agreed to fund further development of his system providing he could adapt it for roulette. Several months and a few thousand pounds later, we tested the new system in casinos from Surfers Paradise to Las Vegas, via Monaco and London. Results were rather hit and miss, and at times it was costly to run (requiring a £10,000 bank roll), but overall it was profitable and paid for our outrageous 12 week world tour!
For three years my friend made small changes to the system until it became more consistent and risk-effective. During that time we played it and each earned in excess of £100,000 a year. However, we decided that the casino lifestyle wasn't for us (hotels - travel - cigarette smoke - poor diet - no family life) so we agreed to complete a final year of roulette, win as much money as possible, then leave the system behind us and do other things with the capital. For my part, I went into trading the Futures markets. My friend decided to go into database software development. For the past 20 years we have both been relatively successful, and neither of us has ever had cause to use the roulette system... until now!
I'm sure you've all heard about the sub-prime situation in the U.S. Unfortunately, I was on the wrong side of that trade and the past year has hit my finances badly, with prospects in the short-term not looking too good at all. So, I've decided to take the roulette system out of moth-balls, and see if it's still the "nice little earner" that it was all those years ago.
Here's the thing... I was told that Internet casinos are the place to go now, but I don't know anything about them! I hadn't given them a serious moment's thought until recently. I've tried a place called Spin Palace Casino (using the FREE Play game). The system appears to work very well there (makes anything from $200 - $1000 per hour depending on bet size), but as you can imagine, I have so many questions about these computer based casinos.
So, here I am asking for your help.
In particular, I would be very grateful to know what you think about:
1) Internet roulette vs a real wheel.
2) Can Internet computer wheels be trusted? Surely, they can manipulate the results and let you win on the free games, then take your cash on the real money tables?
3) Are there any new rules out there concerning table limits and betting sequences?
4) Which casinos have high table limits (dozens) with low minimum bets?
5) Are there any casinos that I should avoid?
6) Can the Internet tables know when I am using a system? If so, what are the consequences, usually?
7) What would you do if you were in my position?
I look forward to hearing from you, and in return will be happy to share more of my experiences.
Cheers - DM - a.k.a. NoMoreBets
Hi Dm aka Nomorebetts,
1) Real wheel!!
2) It's not an real wheel like at an land based casino. It's all software, ask your friend about it.
3) Each online casino setts it's own terms, if i'am right folks?
4) See answer 3.
5) Oh....... a lot of them!!
6) I do not play at them so perhaps somebody else can answer this question.
7) Go out to an real casino, book your hotel. Get an nice sleep. Wake up at 10 in the morning. View the city. The when the casino's open get loaded with money. Get an rest at an nice resort. And, start the whole thing again.... ;D
Carlitos 8-)
Hey DM,
Hopefully I can point you in the right direction!
1 - When your talking about internet gambling (specifically roulette) there are 2 main scenarios. You have RNG style games and live table games. RNG, as you may know, is simply a roulette table that picks its numbers by Random (or so they say) using computer algorigiths and such (there's acutally something called TRNG... search through the forum, you'll find the info). Live table gambling online is where you can actually see a table and dealer/wheel and bet on it. Personally I trust the live tables much more and wouldn't touch a RNG game ever again. A popular one lately is DublinBet...
2 - Definately a theory DM. Many a people have won tons playing in "fun mode" and as soon as they switch over to real money, BAM! all gone!
3 - Not that I know of. I've heard rumours of some online casino's not allowing you to play a progression... but frankly I doubt that.
4 - I don't play on many online tables but I do know that DublinBet has a low and high limit table as do most online games.
5 - I would avoid any that are based on RNG (as mentioned before) I've also heard bad things about casino's using "playtech" software but I'm not very familiar with it personally.
6 - Do you run the system on a computer? If you are using it on the same computer, it's possible (if they have infected your PC with spyware or the likes). Also, if your system is somewhat mechanical, I would think that if the casino was watching you for some time, it could figure out your betting and thus, your system.
7 - If I were in your position? Obviously I would hit the tables again, since it worked so well in the past! I would probably test it first on a live table and see what my results would be like.
Hope this helps! Feel free to PM me anything else you might need to know!
Cheers,
Matt
NoMoreBets
Is there any possibility---------even the most slightest, tiniest, most minute, hey, I'm talkin' smaller than an amoeba's arsehole-----is there any chance on God's green earth that you might be trying to sell this wonderful system?
Or has ol' TwoCat gone paranoid again??
Sam
............... Twocatsam.... well it always start like this........ doesn't it?.......
For now lett's give it a view.......
Carlitos 8-)
Hello DM, [smiley=welcome/welcome.gif] to the family.
Let me have a take on your questions.
1) Internet roulette vs a real wheel.
Whenever possible go to a real wheel. Have Internet wheels as an option only at reputable places. There are successful stories like our fellow member bobby who makes a decent living exclusively out of online casinos.
2) Can Internet computer wheels be trusted? Surely, they can manipulate the results and let you win on the free games, then take your cash on the real money tables?
Discard RNG roulette as they aren't even roulette in my book.
When playing online, be certain it is a live wheel only and at a reputable casino.
There is a documented case (nolinks://wizardofodds.com/blacklist/) by the WizardOfOdds :
QuoteAfter getting some anecdotal evidence that Netgaming.com was cheating in free play mode I gave them a try. In their single zero roulette game I placed 200 bets on red. My results were 133 wins and 67 losses. The probability of 133 or more wins in 200 spins is 1 in 3,788,515. So obviously they were letting me win. I blame the software for this and thus add all Elka/Oyster Gaming casinos to my blacklist.
3) Are there any new rules out there concerning table limits and betting sequences?
The game is the same since centuries ago ;)
4) Which casinos have high table limits (dozens) with low minimum bets?
For the higher max, try nolinks.betinternet.com
For low minimum at a live wheel: Joyland.com has $0.10 mins.
For a good spread, try bet365.com, from $0.25 to $250 (a 1 to 1000 spread!).
Remember you can "fake" table minimums and maximums at the dozens using double-streets for the mins and for the max you can distribute proportionally using double-streets, streets, splits and straight-up numbers. Your max is the combined amount of all of them.
This post illustrates it, using dublinbet: nolinks://vlsroulette.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1212040377
Also, there the good ol' table switching technique, from lower mins to higher ones, i.e. at betinternet you can start at the $5 min table and move up as required. Notice you will have to skip a spin for the moving to take place.
5) Are there any casinos that I should avoid?
Yes, you can start by the ones blacklisted here: nolinks://wizardofodds.com/blacklist/
6) Can the Internet tables know when I am using a system? If so, what are the consequences, usually?
Yes, the ones who are using "shady" practices to detect you only do such
in case you are winning, if you are using a system and losing, they never complain.
CasinoWebcam.com can choose to forfeit your money (i.e. plain steal your buy-in) by simply accusing you from "cheating" the game. The ugliest thing is they do not even have to prove you are cheating, they only need to
suspect it for stealing your account's money. Here you have a quote of their terms:
QuoteCasinowebcam reserves the right to freeze and [highlight]forfeit player accounts[/highlight] due to actual or [highlight]suspected[/highlight] Fraudulent activity;
- Including but not limited to Multiple Registrations and/or Logins via either Casinowebcam or Licensee sites,
- Attempts by the player to circumvent the normal odds of the game played via electronic or other methods,
- and/or [highlight]employing playing methods[/highlight], including but not limited to the following; such as observing and/or recording deal outcomes over a period of time via login to Casinowebcam and/or Licensee sites,
- [highlight]Using a system of progressive betting[/highlight] for example on Roulette over an extended period of play,
- Using Card Counting or other measures [highlight]as determined solely by Casinowebcam[/highlight] and/or it's authorized agents on Table Games.
- Using any other Fraudulent method(s).
- In such cases ALL such Player Accounts will be subject to seizure by Casinowebcam and Prosecution will be followed to the fullest extent of the Law.
This is ridiculous, specially the part of "
Attempts by the player to circumvent the normal odds of the game, so this positively means if you commit the "crime" of attempting to win systematically, they have the right to get your funds because that is considered fraud in their book. Best way of not paying legally: claiming the odds of the game say you will lose, and since you win, it must be fraud = total grounds for having your account's fund forfeited. Playing a progression and winning? that is also considered fraud. Basically the only legal way they want you to act is to just handle them the money by scattering chips without ever even thinking in the game you are playing. Not even watch the numbers, "observing and/or recording deal outcomes" for them is also fraudulent. What a joke of a casino.
You can read more on this fraud definition here: nolinks://vlsroulette.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1200010254
Feel free to leave your opinion.
7) What would you do if you were in my position?
I have a question for you: is your system a grinding one, or an explosive one?
Do you work with a single massive bank in the hope of not losing, or do you work with several smaller banks trying to win more than losing?
Only after knowing your answers would I be able to respond to this question properly, what I would do will differ according to those variables.
Best regards,
your friend.
Victor
Thanks to Everyone who has responded.
Let me say right now that there is not any possibility---------even the most slightest, tiniest, most minute, hey, I'm talkin' smaller than an amoeba's arsehole-----chance on God's green earth that I will ever sell this system... LOL (Sorry, TwoCatSam) Why would I want to sell the system when I can make a lot of money, for a lot less trouble, by simply playing it!!!
Mind you, I am that much older now and the idea of travelling and hanging around the casinos again doesn't fill my heart with glee. I was hoping that Internet casinos would remove that aspect AND allow me to make money faster. But from your feedback it doesn't look like RNG is the answer. Then again, if live wheels can be trusted, at least I won't have to do the travelling bit again.
As regards some of your questions:
To mattymattz: The system doesn't run on a computer (but maybe it could be adapted to do that - is it possible to have computerised systems run automatically on Internet roulette tables????? Could be very interesting!).
My system is currently written on paper. I only need to memorise the betting sequences again to use it in a real-world casino. Mind you, in my day it wasn't frowned upon to sit at the table with notebook in hand. I even used to tell pit bosses that I was betting using a system. NEVER was I told that I was cheating and NEVER was my table closed down! Do you think it's still like that or would I be kicked out for "cheating"?
My relationship with casino managers was excellent. In fact, in many casinos they went to some lengths to let people know that someone was winning BIG on roulette. Of course, they knew perfectly well that what ever we won, others would lose several time more. And either way, they had table limits to protect themselves. If I was winning, they had to put it down to LUCK - Right? LOL
To Carlitos: Thanks for the suggestions. When I didn't have a family (now married with three kids) the idea of flying off to a tropical paradise like Nassau (Bahamas), enjoying the sun, sea, booze, and women, before a hard slog at the tables was a VERY atractive proposition. In fact, I did that on a number of occaisions... but I never won at the tables there because I wasn't focused and made too many mistakes playing the system! I think it's the same in anything we do. Take your eye off the ball for a second and you'll get kicked in the a**!
To VLSroulette: Your feedback has been very enlightening. I am truly grateful. I will follow up the various references as soon as I finish writing this and will revert in due course. I hope Casinowebcam.com is not typical of Internet casinos, otherwise, I will have to go back to real-world ones. Bummer!
As regards the system itself, I am somewhat limited as to what I can tell you. Not because I don't want to share (allthough I would be a fool to give away the secret), but it was my friend who spent years developing it and I never really wanted to know the technical details.
Nonetheless, here is what I can share at the moment:
1) The system requires up to 10 banks (although we only ever had to use a maximum of three - I think).
2) Each bank represents a number of chips, not a dollar value.
3) What seperates the system from other systems - so I was told - is that bet size is based upon a mix of probability analysis, trend analysis, and money management (funny really, because without knowing it, I developed a very similar algorythmic system for trading Futures and Forex).
4) I think the system uses a grind progression but I can't be sure if that's what it's called. Suffice to say that bet size increases after each loss, although, we don't use a set multiple (e.g., 2,4,8,16 etc). Because bet size is based upon additional factors it uses is variable progression. In some intsances, the return on the first winning bet can be ZERO. However, normally within the next two or three bets the system can return a profit of 5 - 10 times the losses of an entire progression (subject to table limits etc.) - If that makes sense.
So, there you have it. I hope I have not been too secretive, although I'm sure you can understand why I can't share eveything with you.
I'm off now to review some of your feedback and will return later.
Cheers & Thanks to all - DM (a.k.a. NoMoreBets )
Of course we understand why you can't share everything with us!
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A good point raised there. I have read a lot of small print at some of these live online casinos over the last few days and a few of them have more or less hinted in the wording that they don't accept professional players. With the technology available at their fingertips, they can soon find out who the players are. They probably have a benchmark and once you start deviating away from expected results on a regular occurence you can expect that e-mail that tells you politely that you are of an uneconomical nature to their business. Standard casino response. If I were you, I would start dusting down your dancing shoes again and hit the lights again.
straight-talker.
they don't accept professional players.>>>
Quite so, and why should thay? They're offering an enterainment venue, not a place where you can make a living at their expense. They are in business to make money, not give it away to people who have beaten the system.
What's entertaining about losing your money?
They don't look at it that way. The casino is giving you a fair chance (fair to their way of thinking) of going home with a little more money than you came with and having fun doing it. They aren't offering you a way to lead the lifestyle of the Rich and Famous by letting you win on a consistant basis. Its not their fault people come more often than they should and waste all thier money on false hopes.
Reading the original post again, it does not make much sense to me anyway.
You said you were living the casino lifestyle but you go on to say that you could average between $200 and $1000 per hour.
So assuming you go in the middle somewhere and you average $500 per hour.
10 hours per week at $500 is $5000. In a year that is $250,000. Yet you say you earned roughly $100,000.
So did you only spend 4 hours a week in the casino. I would not call that a casino lifestyle.
My friend Freddie lives a casino lifestyle, they send his mail there.
I am asking because the figures don't add up to me.
I understand all the travelling and down time to have some fun, but if you could make them sums of money as quick as that, you would have had the opportunity to become multimillionares, especially in the early 80's when things were still fairly loose.
Still, what do I know? If it works for you, then good luck.
Straight-talker.
To Spike: I'm not sure I fully understand your question/statement. As regards being a money management system, you are probably correct, but I know it's not that simple (after all it took many hundreds of man hours to perfect). We don't select individual numbers and place bets on them. We only play the outside 2:1 bets. However, we do record every spin and periodically determine a betting sequence, bet sizes for that sequence, and where to place the bets.
I think the only systematic feature is that it wins more often than it loses (about 55%). However, the wins are significantly greater on key spins, than the losses. If someone was watching my bets, I am sure they couldn't tell that I was using a system. The bets and placements are so entirely random. But then again, I can't be positive about that. Suffice to say that we never had any negative issues with the casinos we played in.
It's worth noting that we visited at least 30 casinos a year, and never won enough at any one casino to be noticed. Possibly that went in our favour. I was hoping that if there were similar numbers of Internet casinos I would be also able to play the system again without being noticed.
By the way, the reference you quoted to the system being "hit and miss and requiring a £10k bank roll" was only at the beginning. After my friend refined the calculations, it became very reliable. As regards the bank roll, that was relative to the winnings we wanted to make. As I mentioned previously, we require 10 banks. If I'm betting £1 chips the bank roll will be £10k. From that £10k I would hope to make about £1000 within 500 spins. But it doesn't work all the time and the system went down £25K at one point.
As regards the math... I don't know what to say. My friend is a genius so I didn't need to know any more than that. What I do know is that there are plenty of people who say that financial markets are random and that it shouldn't be possible to predict price movements. Let me tell you that I have lived very well for the past twenty years trading Futures and Forex. How? Not by predicting price movement but by developing and sticking religiously to a trading strategy that determines optimum entry and exit timing, bet size, position sizing (scaling up and down), and strong entry and exit efficiency. Something that, without realising it, is very similar to the roulette system. My trading profits (up until last year) made an average annual return of 48%.
It's a shame that Internet casinos appear to be hard nuts to crack. I'm still going to look into them further. At the moment I'm trying to determine whether they are mostly owned by one company, or if there are many "players". If I can find 20 or more players, then I might still have a chance to play the system and slip under the radar.
Do you think that winning £5K at any one Internet casino would get me noticed?
Cheers for now.
I think the only systematic feature is that it wins more often than it loses (about 55%).>>>
Thats an impressive win rate. Winning 55% of the bets placed should make you a multi millionaire in extremely short order on the 2/1 chances. Congrats.
Do you think that winning £5K at any one Internet casino would get me noticed?>>>
Winning $500 will throw up the red flags, forget 5k. I don't understand your aversion to live casinos, there are hundreds more of them since you stopped playing and if your system is as confusing to the onlooker as you say it is, the casino will never even know what you're doing.
Quote
You said you were living the casino lifestyle but you go on to say that you could average between $200 and $1000 per hour.
Please note that $200 - $1000 per hour was only the result of recent tests I carried out on an Internet Casino. I was getting substantially more spins per hour than at the real-word tables from years ago. You also forget that we had plenty of losses, all of which had to be recovered. As I've just mentioned in my previous post, the system only wins about 55% of the time. The remaining 45% is also spent at the casino. I can't remember exactly how many days we played each month (it certainly wasn't every month), but when we were playing, we spent at least 8 - 10 hours per day at the tables... and yes, on occasion we had our mail forwarded to the casinos too!
I'm sorry that you are sceptical about my post. But then again, I can understand. Either way, I have nothing to prove and don't feel that I should have to. I only wanted to get some advice about Internet casinos, and thanks to this forum I am making some good progress.
Cheers again - DM.
Only way to know for sure that a casino will let you win and pay when you do and let you continue winning, is to play it. You can certainly afford it, and its the only real way to answer your question.
hi NoMoreBets,
you are talking about winning $5K per day? or per week or per month?
I can safely tell you so far $5K per month is nothing.. safe.. and successful :-)
cheers,
BobbyBobby
Quotehi NoMoreBets,
you are talking about winning $5K per day? or per week or per month?
I can safely tell you so far $5K per month is nothing.. safe.. and successful :-)
Thanks BobbyBobby,
I was talking about £5K per casino. The time frame for winning that amount is unpredictable but sometimes it could take about a week. Then I would move on to the next casino. I never really wanted to spend more than about 10 days at any one casino. If I hadn't won by then, I would move on regardless, and return at a later date (if needs required).
From the sound of it, you don't think that Intenet casinos would pay me any attention if I cleared £5k profit. If you don't mind me asking, what do you base that opinion upon? Is it simply from personal experience, or do you know of other information resources on the Internet?
I wish there was a truly reliable and verifiable source of Internet gambling data. Fom what I can gather this is still a poorly regulated area, and people's experiences vary dramatically. But I appreciate the feedback to date. Thanks :)
Cheers. DM
and people's experiences vary dramatically.>>>
Not really. The vast majority of people report bad experiences at online casinos. They cheat.
hi NoMoreBets,
oh.. 5K pounds.. if per month i don't think it's a problem either.
Yes, from personal experience. cheers :-)
>If you don't mind me asking, what do you base that opinion upon? Is it simply from personal experience
best regards,
BobbyBobby