This topic is to help us decide where to play the best concerning the dealer's influence.
What do you think?
Can a dealer aim for a part of the wheel, off course they can. But how often will they hit that part, there are deflectors (I don't know how the things on the wheel are called) and the ball can ricochet. And if they can aim very accurate what is the range 1-3 numbers 3-6 numbers ..... etc. Not to forget, how skilled must the dealer be?
Let's say a dealer can aim very accurate, than is it better to play a real live casino online (Dublinbet). The dealers can't see your bets, or do they have a ear peace?
Please discus.
Jur
JHM
First, do we believe in dealer signature? I'm not sure I do. Just because three wheels in the casino do three different things does not absolutely mean it's a dealer causing it. The wheel does what the wheel does for no reason whatsoever.
The only way a person would ever prove this would be to buy their own Huxley wheel, spin it a few times and see if they can do it. No?
Suppose Jan at Dublin could hit the sectors at will. Don't you suppose Jan and a buddy would be raking it in? Well, who knows, maybe they are!
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 08, 2008, 05:30:13 PM
JHM
First, do we believe in dealer signature? I'm not sure I do. Just because three wheels in the casino do three different things does not absolutely mean it's a dealer causing it. The wheel does what the wheel does for no reason whatsoever.
The only way a person would ever prove this would be to buy their own Huxley wheel, spin it a few times and see if they can do it. No?
Suppose Jan at Dublin could hit the sectors at will. Don't you suppose Jan and a buddy would be raking it in? Well, who knows, maybe they are!
Sam
I'm hoping for a dealer or ex dealer here to post, if there's one on the forum.
I mean, it is important to know for our strategy. We do want to beat the casino, don't we?
Oh, there was one.....Maltzean
He said he couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a base fiddle!
Well, he actually said he could not hit sectors and never knew anyone who could. He said it's all a myth.
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 08, 2008, 05:36:55 PM
Oh, there was one.....Maltzean
He said he couldn't hit a bull in the arse with a base fiddle!
Well, he actually said he could not hit sectors and never knew anyone who could. He said it's all a myth.
Sam
I have the same thought. But never trust on one opinion, right? :o
I read somewhere that if you would hold the ball above any given number ( say zero ) and aimed for that number simply by dropping the ball (the wheel being still, not spinning), you would have a hard time making the ball fall in that little pocket.
So, how can a dealer aim for a certain pocket or sector having the wheel going one way and the ball going the opposite way ?
To me, that´s crazy.
"to me that's crazy".....
Actually, if you understand physics, it's not all that crazy at all.
Let's cut to the chase here.
I'll skip all the rhetoric about "muscle memory" (look that up) and a whole lot of other subjects that have been written about by serious writers in the gaming industry.
You are a dealer. And unlike 95% of your fellow dealers you take pride in your craft and you generally enjoy the customers who frequent your table. In other words you are normal, not a shifter.
What kind of skill DO YOU believe you would have, spinning the ball, after 14 years AT THE SAME WHEEL and doing so for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year for 14+ years?
It could be consciously or unconsciously but there are traits/skills you have to develop as that is inevitable. How you use them and to what end you use them is another story.
I have been in dealer forums and seen this subject discussed. It is only those who put in their 8 hours and run over their fellow employees at quitting time so as to be first out the door that have negative statements about dealer ability. They have zero pride in their craft. They collect their paycheck and their share of the tip money and they are gone until the next shift. Those posters only judge others by themselves.
Do all dealers, regardless of their experience, have any sort of special spin ability? I'll have to answer no. Simply because they have not taken the time to analyze what they are doing. And they probably could care less about of most outcomes anyway.
If you are a bowler maybe you will understand this.
Many folks join a bowling league to have fun and intermingle. Some over the course of years may have started with an average of 110 and worked their way up to 140 (15 years later). Others, over the course of just one season could have started the same and ended up with a 180 average. Why? Simply because they took the time and effort to involve themselves and improve themselves. Same goes for roulette dealers. Some try it just for the fun of it. Can I do it? Is it possible? Will I ever be able to master such a skill? And the list goes on. Others WORK on it and do so daily. That is the nature of humans.
As I said before, some consciously try to either help or hurt a player (or the house) and others do it exactly the same thing without thinking about it.
Is each and every spin successful? Of course not. Just like not every multi-million dollar baseball player will get a hit when they are at-bat. For what they are being paid - each at-bat should be a home-run for their team. And I would guess since the eyes of the nation or world is on them each time they are up to bat they are giving or are expected to give 100%. Even giving 100% each time you try is not always a success and professional sports and the recent Olympics show that.
As to on-line...well good luck figuring all that out.
Excellent post Talesman.
I've never hear it explained better (and as a bowler, it really hit home)
Cheers,
Matt
Hi Talesman, thank you for your wise words made out of personal experience.
I totally agree with you about the true professionals Vs. shifters. I have that in my line of work and believe me i take it to heart.
What i wanted to point out is that, for example, if i press PRINT at my work terminal, i will get a printed document, but i do not accept that if a dealer aims for a specific sector he will get (hit) that sector, other than by chance.
You are an experienced gambler. You know how the ball bounces all over the place. There are spins where it bounces to the extreme opposite of the landind zone...
They don´t hit a sector at will. True professionals might perfect their abilities, however i find it impossible that they manage to overcome the uncertainty of the (future) ball scatter, after some rotations of the wheel and the ball, being that they have their own velocities and when the ball meets the wheel it producess a clash. Roulette dealer´s ability is hardly something similar to an archers ability.
I´m not a bowler, but i played the game on one occasion or other... That´s something you can improve your accuracy on since you direct the ball towards the impact zone that you know where it is.
A spinning wheel and a spinning ball is a different story altogether. When they meet, who knows where the ball will stop ?
Certainly not the gambler nor the guy who throwed the ball a few seconds ago !
Well, that´s my view on the subject, it might be wrong but rest assured i respect and take in consideration your opinion.
Wildcard, I know I cannot convince you of anything. You sound exactly like a few folks at a dealers forum I used to haunt.
But if you had been with me in Biloxi, MS pre-Katrina and watched me with a few dealers you might have a change of heart.
Speaking of Biloxi - I ran into one cute gal two trips ago who about every 5th spin or so would tell us what number was next. Over the course of about 35-40 minutes she hit it 3 times and once it went into that pocket and jumped back out. There was only one other player besides myself and neither of us bet with the dealer the first two times she told us what to expect. Who knew? The third time I bet the number and several neighbors (as insurance). Wish I had bet more. And when she announced a number that I wasn't covering, I'd take my system bets down, just in case. Was she successful each and every time? Hell no. But she was always close.
Notice I did not say either of us asked for a particular number and got it. But the dealer did hit the number she said she would. There is a difference.
Quote from: Talesman on September 09, 2008, 12:12:11 PM
Wildcard, I know I cannot convince you of anything. You sound exactly like a few folks at a dealers forum I used to haunt.
But if you had been with me in Biloxi, MS pre-Katrina and watched me with a few dealers you might have a change of heart.
Speaking of Biloxi - I ran into one cute gal two trips ago who about every 5th spin or so would tell us what number was next. Over the course of about 35-40 minutes she hit it 3 times and once it went into that pocket and jumped back out. There was only one other player besides myself and neither of us bet with the dealer the first two times she told us what to expect. Who knew? The third time I bet the number and several neighbors (as insurance). Wish I had bet more. And when she announced a number that I wasn't covering, I'd take my system bets down, just in case. Was she successful each and every time? Hell no. But she was always close.
Notice I did not say either of us asked for a particular number and got it. But the dealer did hit the number she said she would. There is a difference.
Exact nr. -> close
Part of the wheel -> Yes
But how many dealers have this ability?
How many? Who knows.
Better question...how many will openly demonstrate their skills to either to the House or the player?
I wish VIP were still around. There you'd have found some credible rants about dealers spinning against them and successfully. Many from EU but quite a few from AU as well. I am not talking newbies. These were all seasoned veterans and long-time roulette players. Folks who KNOW what is what.
BTW these folks with special skills be it a spinner, a card dealer who could deal seconds undetected, etc. were a staple in the old days of Las Vegas before all that was cleaned up. Several credible books printed over the years cover that and more.
I once watched a video on game protection that was published for the industry. What I saw there was unbelievable. That included a person who was able to hit virtually any number on a roulette wheel on demand.
Dice mechanics (ever see a helicopter shot or a true dead-cat bounce?), card dealers who can deal from anywhere in the deck undetected (a reason I will not play BJ where the dealer holds the deck in his hand), croupiers who have extraordinary skills, along with many patron cheaters were featured.
These people and their skills exist. And when they get old, retire or die off others will eventually take their place. It is done in magician circles all the time so why not in casino gaming circles as well?
Item last, FWIW.
Back a few years when I was seriously into dice control when I hit Biloxi or Tunica I sometimes went to the local dealer's school and rented a few hours time on a full-size craps table to practice before starting my casino forays for the week. In one of them there was a rather old roulette wheel. The staple of the industry from the 70's to the 90's (deep pockets). An instructor there once showed me how he could hit virtually any number on-demand. And seeing him do what he did appeared to me like he did it w/o effort. Like it was the most natural thing in the world. Very fluid is the only way I can describe it. Then again, it was his wheel.
I have screen capture movies of many, many days of roulette.
Anyone care to look at my posted numbers under "actuals" and tell me where the dealer changed by how the numbers changed?
If the dealers truly have developed "muscle memory" then it should show.
I think it would be amazing if anyone could predict when a dealer changed to within a certain number of spins. What would be good: 5, 10?
We can all learn something here.
Sam
About 2 years ago I was testing plans against Hamburg actuals.
It was win, lose, lose, win. I noticed a pattern. After finishing I opened the file. I am thankful for the "---" that denoted dealer change.
After testing a month's worth I found one dealer who allowed me to win constantly. (That is an assumption on my part that each time there was dealer change in the file and the number sets that appeared in my favor were all from the same person. Also, it appeared to me that whoever that was usually had a 4-day work week.) Problem was the dealers generally only did 12-20 spins then take a break. I was almost tempted to fly there and find out who was on the table at points X and X and X during the one month...and wait until that person came one and play with all the $$$ I had.
That's all I have to offer currently about sight-unseen dealers.
Talesman........
Not to be argumentative, but...........
If I were tracking a deer and the prints suddenly turned to wolf, I would have no trouble noticing the exact print where this took place.
If dealer signature is all that obvious, would it not be like a deer/bear/wolf/blonde track? Or Bigfoot vs Tiny Tim? Aw, you get my drift!
You do not need to see the dealer, know his sex, name, or anything else. All you need know is that various human beings spun this wheel over the last hundred spins.
Now, if you qualify it by saying, "Well they must spin X number of times.", then you nullify your thesis as you can never be guaranteed a dealer will spin even five times. I've seen them get a sneezing fit and have to leave. I've seen them leave for no reason, live and on line.
If you're saying this: "If a dealer spins 50 times, I can tell when he quits." Well, yeah, he quit at spin 50!
So are you saying there really is a dealer signature, you just can't tell when it begins or ends?
Frankly, I thought you would jump at the chance to prove you actually can perform this feat by looking at 100 numbers and putting that line under the right number. I will send the video to MattyMatz for his approval so there will be no cheating. I also have a few from Dublin. They are real people there, right?
One last try to get you to perform this feat: I'll go to Wiesbaden permanence and get a pot full of numbers. I'll send those to Matty and then I'll take out the underlines and let you put them back in. Are these dealers good enough?
Sir, you have come on this forum with a bit of an attitude about how the unwashed masses don't quite measure up. I'm giving you a chance to show us what you can do.
There's an old saying: Don't let your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird arse.
Sam
Be argumentative all you care to.
I typed my words and I stand by them 100%. Read them. Take them at face value. You may not be reading them in the same light I typed them in, but that's because of the perception on your end or perhaps my lack of clarity.
"Sir, you have come on this forum with a bit of an attitude
about how the unwashed masses don't quite measure up.
I'm giving you a chance to show us what you can do."
I am a curmudgeon. It's official. I have a certificate and everything. Let me quote from: nolinks://nolinks.concentric.net/~marlowe/curdef.shtml (nolinks://nolinks.concentric.net/~marlowe/curdef.shtml) so everyone can get a handle on it.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor.
I do not recall using the term "unwashed masses" or even hinting that but you have. That says a lot to me and should to others reading this as well.
Oh, and kid, I don't have to prove SQUAT to anyone. I've been in the trenches and I have paid my dues. I've walked the walk. I don't need to talk the talk because talking usually gets nothing done. Probably did all that before most folks here were born.
That probably irritated you...right? Get over it. I am a curmudgeon...remember?
I have probably churned more money through casinos than many folks here will ever see, hold or earn in their lifetime. That alone does not make me any sort of expert. But it does make me experienced. I also believe that I can still learn from the great (and not so great) ideas of others and I am eager to do so.
I am also not naive enough to think I could change anyone's mindset, even if I wanted to. You have yours and I have mine. I call' em like I see 'em and I tell it like it is. Everyone - feel free to disregard anything I have to input. You will not and can not hurt my feelings. I am way beyond that picayune stage. Some day most everyone here will be beyond that as well. It is part of the personal growth and aging process. Too bad most of us almost have to be ancient before that happens.
Very well, then.......
I am issuing you a public challenge! You have stated you can tell when a dealer change takes place. You may not have said it those exact words, but we all know you've said it.
This kid is asking you to prove it.
Why not? What have you got to lose?
There are a few million spins out there with those little lines under them. Let's pull down a few and see how good you are.
You say you don't have anything to prove. Excuse me, but you do! You have talked your talk now let's see you walk your walk.
People can come on these forums and blow like hurricane Ike about what they can do, but, boy, just ask them to prove it and what do they always say: I don't have anything to prove. Yes, but you do!!
I publicly call your credibility into question. Here for this forum and whomever reads it to see.
I don't think you can do it!!
Is there one other person reading this who would like to see the man do what he says he can do. If not, what are we here for?
Sam
Quote from: Talesman on September 09, 2008, 09:39:17 PM
About 2 years ago I was testing plans against Hamburg actuals.
It was win, lose, lose, win. I noticed a pattern. After finishing I opened the file. I am thankful for the "---" that denoted dealer change.
After testing a month's worth I found one dealer who allowed me to win constantly. (That is an assumption on my part that each time there was dealer change in the file and the number sets that appeared in my favor were all from the same person. Also, it appeared to me that whoever that was usually had a 4-day work week.) Problem was the dealers generally only did 12-20 spins then take a break. I was almost tempted to fly there and find out who was on the table at points X and X and X during the one month...and wait until that person came one and play with all the $$$ I had.
That's all I have to offer currently about sight-unseen dealers.
From the above:
It was win, lose, lose, win. I noticed a pattern. After finishing I opened the file. I am thankful for the "---" that denoted dealer change.
Let's not parse words: In the above you are clearly saying that you noticed a pattern and that the "----" confirmed your suspicions of dealer change.
First, if you were using a permanence, how did you see the numbers without opening the file in the first place?
Would any one of you explain to me in plain English how this man saw the numbers to know he had a win/lose pattern if he was not looking at the numbers? Would one of you explain to me how he looked at the numbers and did
not see the "---"? Anyone? Am I missing something here?
So, Mr. Curmudgeon, you saw a pattern, opened the file for the first time and saw that the "---" confirmed your suspicion. Right?
Why won't you repeat it? What have you got to fear?
Sam
>>You have stated you can tell when a dealer change takes place.>>
I don't think he's saying that at all. Like Talesman, I play a very specific method that often depends on the wheel outcome going in a very specific direction. I noticed a long time ago that time after time after time, a new dealer would completely ruin what had been, right up to the dealer change, a very profitable session. So I started to be very leery of dealer changes, and lo and behold, most of the time I was wise to do so. No dealer throws the same game as the last dealer, its naive to think they do. If you're playing a game that depends on general random outcomes, it won't matter to you. If you have a specific game you're playing, it matters very much what the dealer is throwing.
Last time I was in Vegas, on my way out I stopped at the Hard Rock. There was a guy betting big bucks at roulette, he was wagering about $1500 on every spin in 4 different places. On every spin he won something. He would let out a yell and exchange an air high five with the dealer. This went on for about 12 spins and the guy was cleaning up, winning thousands. Then came the dealer change and it was like somebody threw a switch. At the 3rd loss in a row the guy wisely colored up and left the table. Was that a coincidence that he started losing at the dealer change? Don't you believe it..
Spike
All well and good, but you failed to answer my question in red.
I can hear him now: "Well here's how I was able to test my system without ever looking at the numbers. I had my wife call them out to me!" Oh, yeah, in this lifetime!!
So, how DID he do that test and THEN open the file and see the "---"?
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 12:39:23 AM
Very well, then.......
I am issuing you a public challenge! You have stated you can tell when a dealer change takes place. You may not have said it those exact words, but we all know you've said it.
This kid is asking you to prove it.
Why not? What have you got to lose?
There are a few million spins out there with those little lines under them. Let's pull down a few and see how good you are.
You say you don't have anything to prove. Excuse me, but you do! You have talked your talk now let's see you walk your walk.
People can come on these forums and blow like hurricane Ike about what they can do, but, boy, just ask them to prove it and what do they always say: I don't have anything to prove. Yes, but you do!!
I publicly call your credibility into question. Here for this forum and whomever reads it to see.
I don't think you can do it!!
Is there one other person reading this who would like to see the man do what he says he can do. If not, what are we here for?
Sam
QuoteWould any one of you explain to me in plain English how this man saw the numbers to know he had a win/lose pattern if he was not looking at the numbers? Would one of you explain to me how he looked at the numbers and did not see the "---"? Anyone? Am I missing something here?
Sam.
I am 100% behind You here Mate.
I would like to know the Answers as well.
Like You Sam I must be missing something.
Lanky.
Hello Gentlemen (I think you are all gentlemen).
I have the utmost respect for you and I feel quite sad the way that this topic is becoming. You are like my mentors, I learn from you every time I read them.
We can always discuss a respectful way. There is never need to say things that might offend nor be taken to bad.
Do not make war of words but make the best battle of ideas, in the polite way.
May I have the request of stepping a moment to say a bit about the very subject of this topic.
I have been using the dealers ball movement pattern when I notice that a dealer spins the wheel slow and launches the ball with speed to medium or low, I can attempt to capture his signature.
I never do so with the dealers rotating disc so fast that the numbers are a simple draw or when working with the ball speed that it bounces too much after it hit on the wheel.
In addition there are things that I use and not have an explanation. For example, I know the pattern of the dealer signature is a trend. I do not expect it to be always in the money making location. Many times same dealer makes a bad day today and makes a good day tomorrow. It is the tendency to exploit but never claim to be the certain thing.
My advice is: when dealer makes rotor low and ball launch is medium-low, try to determine the signature pattern.
Do not mix the clockwise and counter-clockwise spins. Use different spreadsheet for each.
Some advice for the dealer signature and very important: do not be the stubborn man. Because dealer signature is another trend you make the watch and you try to capture and expliot it. If not possible today, maybe possible tomorrow.
The important thing is not to lose your money chasing the one that does not appear after a reasonable analysis at this day's session.
Many greetings.
WannaWin
Below is what I call speaking to the unwashed masses: I will take the liberty of underlining and bolding the offending statement and we'll go from there:
Quote from: Talesman on September 08, 2008, 08:11:50 PM
"to me that's crazy".....
Actually, if you understand physics, it's not all that crazy at all.
Let's cut to the chase here.
I'll skip all the rhetoric about "muscle memory" (look that up) and a whole lot of other subjects that have been written about by serious writers in the gaming industry.
Now here's a bloke who knows about muscle memory and the rest of us don't and must "look that up". I know a great deal about muscle memory. I worked in a field where people had to give me their phone numbers from memory. Many could not do it off the top of their head, but they could walk over to the phone on the desk and punch in their number. I was a league bowler for years.
I can pull a big word out of one of a dozen books in my little library and tell someone to look it up. Does that mean I'm smart or the world is dumb? Neither. What it would mean is that I have a condescending attitude to my readers. I probably have this attitude due to low self-esteem and feel the need to impress people who don't know me and never will.
So, I re-issue my challenge, Mr. Curmudgeon: Show us what you can do. We'll all put down our dictionaries long enough to watch.
Great guys, keep the discussion up but please keep it friendly.
One says it can be done, the other say's it can't be. That's this thread for, to discuss.
We are a lot further now, maybe there are dealers who can. But I'm sure, that they will never hit 10 out of 10 (part's of the wheel) and this will only be a few dealers.
JHM
I disagree--it is no longer up for discussion. Why discuss something when it can be proven one way or the other?
I have posted the challenge.
Sam
hello talesman,
i have always wondered about this dealer signature business.. im sorry im not that knowledgable about roulette, but basic common sense has told me that it couldnt be true..but always was scared to ask, lest I seem stupid :-[
i have a request for u my brother.. can I really see u do what u say seems possible ?? it may change my entire view about the game :)..and let me clarify that its nowhere close to a challenge..and its coincidental that I am asking for this.. I come in humility wanting to learn about the game..
if possible even for a short run of spins, could u articulate or demonstrate what u strongly believe in ?
dealer signature is one of the most controversial subjects of roulette.. since you are knowledgable pls help out.. I really do want to see this in action..
i do not mean to offend, but I disbelieve, and I WANT that you prove me wrong :)..it would open more windows about the game.. and give us more ways to beat it
thanks
anand
Andy,
The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask. Non-believing is fine! Being a skeptic is fine. Wanting proof is fine. I have always maintained I'm on the fence in this argument: I frankly don't know! If someone (?) does know, well, clue us in, right?
Oh, no smoke and mirrors please. Saw that in THE WIZARD OF OZ! Let's see the proof in the pudding!
Waiting............
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 02:56:01 PM
JHM
I disagree--it is no longer up for discussion. Why discuss something when it can be proven one way or the other?
I have posted the challenge.
Sam
Sam,
Maybe discussion isn't the good word (sorry for my interpretation for not being English). Maybe gathering information is better said. I mean, 95-98%? of soccer players miss 90 out of 100 targeted freekicks. Than you have the 2-3% really skilled which hit 90 out of 100 targets.
I mean, maybe there are skilled dealers. And off course the ball can roll over the wheel or hit a deflector. But I'm just trying to get some information. I do think there are skilled dealers which can hit a certain area's of the wheel, let's say 7-8 out of 10 times.
And your challenge, I hope Talesman will play your challenge. I'm really curious for the outcome.
Jur
Frankly, I'm done with it.
Thanks for your input.
Sam
Hi JHM, and everyone else :)
I'm really glad to see that you have started a thread about this topic. I think that it's a very interesting matter.
When i have a little spare time, i'm also working on something to try and see if theres realy something about this DS thing. (You can see my thread: nolinks://vlsroulette.com/full-systems/my-new-sytem-using-dealer-signature-on-dublinbet/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/full-systems/my-new-sytem-using-dealer-signature-on-dublinbet/))
I have a really strong feeling that there is.
However i think something is essential for this to work:
-The ball must be spun from the last hitting number.
My take on this is that it's not so much about the dealers skills of aiming at a number. I think it's more about Their subconscious way of spinning. My feeling is that after a period of time at the table, they get into a certain rhythm, which then gives rise to a subconscious "signature". I'm not saying that then you can 100% tell where the ball will land, but maybe in 6-7 out of 10 you could. Thats still an advantage, especially if flatbetting.
I don't know, there just has to be something about it :-\
The problem is that it takes a hell of a lot of time testing this, because you have to sit and record the numbers spun from the certain dealer(s), and an hours recording only give about 50 numbers.
But if we were together gathering the numbers it would be easyer. So with this i would like to appeal to people that when they record a session (personally i'm most interested in DB spins because they spin from last hit number), remember to note who the dealer is, and please share with us [smiley=dankk2.gif]
In the tests i've done, some very exploitative patterns seems to arrise, but thats at max. 200 spins from one dealer, which i guess really can't be used for too much in long term.
Anyway this is my little contribution so far, hope somebody finds it usefull. :)
Best Regards
Kingpin
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 01:26:09 AM
Spike
All well and good, but you failed to answer my question in red.
I can hear him now: "Well here's how I was able to test my system without ever looking at the numbers. I had my wife call them out to me!" Oh, yeah, in this lifetime!!
So, how DID he do that test and THEN open the file and see the "---"?
Sam
Sry for the late reply (I've been busy at work and haven't been reading all the threads) but I thought I'd offer my 2 cents. Firstly though I want to say that the 2 of you (Talesman and TCS) are 2 of my favorite posters. And not just because of your years of experience, but cause your both frickin' hilarious (mostly by pointing out the obvious).
Now I don't want to answer from Talesman, but it's possible that he downloaded the spins into RX and tested them, then, after noticing the 'pattern' checked the actual file and saw the '---'. Just a possibilty.
Matt
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 12:39:23 AM
Very well, then.......
I am issuing you a public challenge! You have stated you can tell when a dealer change takes place. You may not have said it those exact words, but we all know you've said it.
This kid is asking you to prove it.
Why not? What have you got to lose?
There are a few million spins out there with those little lines under them. Let's pull down a few and see how good you are.
You say you don't have anything to prove. Excuse me, but you do! You have talked your talk now let's see you walk your walk.
People can come on these forums and blow like hurricane Ike about what they can do, but, boy, just ask them to prove it and what do they always say: I don't have anything to prove. Yes, but you do!!
I publicly call your credibility into question. Here for this forum and whomever reads it to see.
I don't think you can do it!!
Is there one other person reading this who would like to see the man do what he says he can do. If not, what are we here for?
Sam
Evidently you do have a reading comprehension problem.
I stated I noticed a pattern to my wins and losses within Hamburg files.
Only then did I actually open them up on-screen (used notepad) and compare the winning and losing sections to the dealers.
My observation was that one particular dealer was giving me winning spin after winning spin and did so on a very consistant basis.
It took me a long time to manually work through a month's worth of Hamburg Table 1 to correlate that data. I did that for my satisfaction only.
With that in mind I'll have to decline whatever offer or challenge you present as I gain nothing from it. But, I will be happy to do so for pay. My standard shop rates are $85 an hour. Since this will be during down time and done when I feel like it, I'll lower that to $50 an hour. I estimate about 2 hours work per table file. We generally get a 50% deposit. If that's acceptable, I'll open a PayPal account.
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 12:51:34 AM
Quote from: Talesman on September 09, 2008, 09:39:17 PM
About 2 years ago I was testing plans against Hamburg actuals.
It was win, lose, lose, win. I noticed a pattern. After finishing I opened the file. I am thankful for the "---" that denoted dealer change.
After testing a month's worth I found one dealer who allowed me to win constantly. (That is an assumption on my part that each time there was dealer change in the file and the number sets that appeared in my favor were all from the same person. Also, it appeared to me that whoever that was usually had a 4-day work week.) Problem was the dealers generally only did 12-20 spins then take a break. I was almost tempted to fly there and find out who was on the table at points X and X and X during the one month...and wait until that person came one and play with all the $$$ I had.
That's all I have to offer currently about sight-unseen dealers.
From the above:
It was win, lose, lose, win. I noticed a pattern. After finishing I opened the file. I am thankful for the "---" that denoted dealer change.
Let's not parse words: In the above you are clearly saying that you noticed a pattern and that the "----" confirmed your suspicions of dealer change.
First, if you were using a permanence, how did you see the numbers without opening the file in the first place?
Would any one of you explain to me in plain English how this man saw the numbers to know he had a win/lose pattern if he was not looking at the numbers? Would one of you explain to me how he looked at the numbers and did not see the "---"? Anyone? Am I missing something here?
So, Mr. Curmudgeon, you saw a pattern, opened the file for the first time and saw that the "---" confirmed your suspicion. Right?
Why won't you repeat it? What have you got to fear?
Sam
As to
"First, if you were using a permanence, how did you see the numbers without opening the file in the first place?" I do not know how you test/play actuals but I have been using RX exclusively for years.
RX allowed a direct import of Hamburg and that's what I usually did if I wanted to test single-0 data.
It came to me sight-unseen and all I had to do was select the day from a pull-down menu from within RX.
Did you follow that? Was that easy to comprehend?
Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 10, 2008, 08:03:11 AM
Now here's a bloke who knows about muscle memory and the rest of us don't and must "look that up".
Your twittering ignorance is becoming annoying right about now.
I said "look it up" as there are volumes written on that subject as it applies to sports and gambling and written by experts in the field who can talk about it in far more clarity than I as well as present provable data.
If anyone was interested on that topic they could do their own research. For me to just repeat those tomes would fill volumes here as well. That would be redundant.
Quote from: AnandMajumdar on September 10, 2008, 03:08:42 PM
hello talesman,
i have always wondered about this dealer signature business.. im sorry im not that knowledgable about roulette, but basic common sense has told me that it couldnt be true..but always was scared to ask, lest I seem stupid :-[
i have a request for u my brother.. can I really see u do what u say seems possible ?? it may change my entire view about the game :)..and let me clarify that its nowhere close to a challenge..and its coincidental that I am asking for this.. I come in humility wanting to learn about the game..
if possible even for a short run of spins, could u articulate or demonstrate what u strongly believe in ?
dealer signature is one of the most controversial subjects of roulette.. since you are knowledgable pls help out.. I really do want to see this in action..
i do not mean to offend, but I disbelieve, and I WANT that you prove me wrong :)..it would open more windows about the game.. and give us more ways to beat it
thanks
anand
I was not actually discussing dealer's signature. Nope, not at all. That would be an entirely different subject.
There is a fairly new book on it that was published and now in the marketplace which I am lead to believe is quite comprehensive and very authoritative. From my reading it has gotten some great reviews from some of the USA's nationally published gaming writers. That has started an on-going debate in some of the gaming community circles.
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. I am not getting into that deabte because that is far from my realm of expertise. But I guess it beats trying to find non-existent biased wheels and a whole lot easier than wheel-clocking.
Quote from: mattymattz on September 11, 2008, 11:11:13 AM
Now I don't want to answer from Talesman, but it's possible that he downloaded the spins into RX and tested them, then, after noticing the 'pattern' checked the actual file and saw the '---'. Just a possibilty.
Matt
Matt, you got that right just off the top of your head.
That's precisely how it worked. You must have a copy of RX!
Remember when I mentiond physics, skill, pride in craft and that "nonsense?"
Check this out. Sums it up nicely.
But, hey, it HIS table!!! Just don't play against him.
nolinks://nolinks.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHsqtWiDOU (nolinks://nolinks.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHsqtWiDOU)
I was not actually discussing dealer's signature. Nope, not at all.<<<
Its so simple I don't understand why anybody has a hard time understanding it. If you just scatter chips around the board, you will never notice or care about a dealer change. If, however, you are playing a specific system and are doing well at it and the new dealer stops you winning like somebody threw a switch, then you start to notice and care about the dealer changes. No dealer is going to take up where the last one left off, its as simple as that.
Spike, well said.
Now how in the hell did that graphic get in my post?
I only placed a link there! Weird!
Quote from: Talesman on September 13, 2008, 04:24:40 AM
Spike, well said.
Now how in the hell did that graphic get in my post?
I only placed a link there! Weird!
Strange things happen Talesman. 20 black's in a row ???
Come on Talesman, you can´t really be serious here !!
There´s no possible comparision between roulette and a pool table. This is a joke right ?
The pool table isn´t spinning, his white ball isn´t spinning at the opposite direction, there are no deflections, no uncertain bounces, there´s nothing to do with roulette.
He is a skilled POOL player, yes, sure. So what does that prove ?
Sorry it is not all that obvious to you. Thought it would be. My bad.
You guys say, in essence, the skills don't exist.
All I am saying is that one individual took the time to do what he did. Most pool players couldn't master 1/2 of what was depicted in a lifetime of trying. Then again, how many actually try? And of those who do, how many succeed? Ditto for dealers. There always have been and probably always will be a dealer here and there that can make the wheel dance to his tune. And like the pool video, it is all physics.
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE IF YOU TRY!!!!
20 Blacks? Try 22 blacks (possibly 23 there was an argument on that) by one dealer. She was relieved and then 11 consecutive reds right from the starting gate when the new dealer came on. President Casino Biloxi, MS on an October Sunday afternoon about 4:30 p.m. to about 5:20 p.m.
And none of that was was anything more than an event as far as I am concerned although the first dealer, who spun black, was one of the best I have ever run into - skill-wise. Pure coincidence .... well maybe, except for the one time I asked for the 2/0/00 basket and got it. Other than that it was just routine. I loved that gal.
@ Talesman >> Are you implying that this lady dealer was so skilled that she would aim for black ?
That would be ludicrous and surely an obvious insult to anyone´s intelligence, so you go on to say " Pure coincidence .... well maybe, except for the one time I asked for the 2/0/00 basket and got it. Other than that it was just routine. "
Which is it ? Skills or coincidence on the black numbers ? Let´s assume coincidence for now.
"except for the one time" >>> one time... one time !!! Was it skill ? Or coincidence, maybe... ???
Gamblers remember the happy times better. How many times would she fail if you kept asking for the same oucome ?
" Other than that it was just routine. " .... Other than that or also that ?
I thought it was pretty obvious that I thought nothing of the continuous blacks as streaks do happen. I got there after about 8 or so had transpired. I did say to her that I really could use a hit on that basket (which I had nickel on) and I dropped one white chips on it as a dealer incentive plus a white dealer bet on the 0/00 split. I had other bets but that would have paid me the most.
It was nice that we both made a few bucks when the 2 hit. If she had hit the zero, she would have won both bets.
I can't begin to tell you how many folks ran over and bet over my shoulder on red and got whooped'. That was a hoot!! Between them all probably close to $1500 was lost on the attempt. There was a lot of "money plays" being called out by the dealer.
All-in-all a strange day. Her relief dealer, a cute-as-a-button Asian gal who was all of maybe 5' tall, then hit 11 consecutive reds. What are the odds? 22-23 blacks followed by 11 reds...just when you thought you had seen it all.