Friends
Why are we here? I am puzzled, frankly!
When winkel posted the G.U.T. and called it the "Holy Grail", people flocked to his thread in hopes of what--learning a system to make money from a roulette wheel? That was my intention. Droidman wrote absolutely perfect software for it, which I have archived in four places so I'll never lose it. In the beginning, there were a host of people studying and trying to understand winkel.
I am not yet ready to declare the G.U.T. my personal Holy Grail, but I am close. It is reaching the point that I am confident, but not overly confident, of its power. I still allow that I could be on the world's longest lucky streak. When I earn $2,000 betting $5 bets, I will declare it my Grail. Notice the word "if" is not in there? Or "win"? The G.U.T. is work. You have to pay attention and spend time learning it.
What puzzles me is why no one is trying to duplicate my tests. Every last one of you has access to Bella Vegas Casino (Microgaming) and not one of you seems interested. You don't even watch the videos or study the G.U.T as I teach it. Same with the "Fire" system by Gamlet. Even though I show, time and time again, the sectors forming and being hit, no one cares. KFS wrote perfect software for the "Fire" and does anyone use it? I doubt it.
Yet you seem interested in a system which says when R B R appears, bet R B R 'cause the wheel can't do it twice in a row. Use a Martingale 'cause it will never go to the third level.
If I were wanting to learn a system and I watched one of my videos, I would think that either the guy was the luckiest S.O.B. on the planet or he is faking the videos. No system can win money like this one does!! That is what I would think. OR---I would ask myself if the G.U.T. is possibly a winning system.
If there is one of you who thinks I am faking the videos, I invite you to log on at the same time I do and monitor the spins. You will see for yourself that the videos are reality.
In closing, it is obvious that no one is interested in the videos as Motion Box counts the views. Some have never been viewed. So I will stop making them as of today. I have no complaint. I greatly enjoyed the study of the screen capture software and Motion Box. It's been great!
Not for my sake, but for that of winkel, I truly regret that there is no longer interest in the G.U.T.
Sam
I acknowledge that Winkel did post a noteworthy system in G.U.T. Like you said, however, you do have to learn it, and it may all be chance.
As for why we are here, I consider this place "Roulette School." Somewhere in meeting good people in the gambling arena and making friends, maybe we'll learn something about the wheel.
I'm sure many people are interested in the GUT, but it is a pretty complex/hard to understand system. I even played it for a while, and I also play Gamlet's fire method, usually at the same time. But as time has passed and I have learnt a lot from certain people, I no longer play systems. That does not mean I am not interested in your testing, I check your topic every time you post. I just do not watch the videos because I already know how to use the GUT. And I know that you aren't faking the videos.
I guess most people are just looking for an easy way to win at roulette, so the GUT doesn't appeal to them.
Proof
You wrote "and it may all be chance."
You tell me what I would have to do, how much would I have to win, how large a bet would I have to make, before you would believe. I took $229 and ran it to over $1400 with the G.U.T and "Fire". And I video taped it.
Then I took $201 and--using .50 bets--I pumped it to over $400. Now I am using $1 bets and I've moved it up to $564. That's double the original bankroll.
Do you really believe anyone can be that lucky? When I win crossing after crossing after crossing, can it still be "chance"? When I hit a 3 vs >3 with only two numbers bet on the first try, is that luck? When I hit over and over and over again with less than ten numbers bet, is that all chance?
I'd love to see some of the math people program my results into a computer and figure the odds of me doing what I have done on pure mathematical chance. They would be astronomical!
How much? I'm serious as a heart attack! How much should I win to convince you? Would $10,000 do it. I could use the money and I have family wanting to invest in $10 bets at Riverbelle. If I can win $35 on a $1 bet, I can win $350 on a ten-spot! That could add up!
How much? And what proof do you want?
Sam
Sam, I'll give the GUT another look. It lost for me when I originally tracked the system, though.
I`m better at B & M casinos, anyway, so I didn`t test it for very long.
Ron.
Sam,
I have already proven to myself that this is as close to the HG as I am going to get. My graph on this page, nolinks://vlsroulette.com/testing-zone/testing-g-u-t/225/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/testing-zone/testing-g-u-t/225/) is as good as it gets! I have found what I came to gambling forums for.
I answered this question at least three times already. If you came up with a system/method that passed a test of 8 million spins and made a profit of $700,000, people would look at it for awhile, then move on to the next idea. There use to be some very good methods at VIP. Where did they go? Faded off into the mist. It will always be like this, period. Ken
Lohnro
Believe me, your graph was a great inspiration to me!
mr j
Yep, you're right!
Forum Friends and Friendly Freaks........
I guess it's more fun to hunt a system than to make money with one. I can't disagree!! I'm dying to test the system enrique posted.
Film at eleven!
Sam
I love systems. It is fascinating to me from the planning stage to the actual testing how it holds up.
@ Sam:
I am amazed to see you win in those G.U.T. movies. I am convinced that it's your Holy Grail.
Truth be told, I've tested the GUT enough to acknowledge it's not for me.
I do hope you continue to make those movies, they're instructive as well as entertaining.
QuoteYou wrote "and it may all be chance."
You tell me what I would have to do, how much would I have to win, how large a bet would I have to make, before you would believe. I took $229 and ran it to over $1400 with the G.U.T and "Fire". And I video taped it.
Then I took $201 and--using .50 bets--I pumped it to over $400. Now I am using $1 bets and I've moved it up to $564. That's double the original bankroll.
Do you really believe anyone can be that lucky? When I win crossing after crossing after crossing, can it still be "chance"? When I hit a 3 vs >3 with only two numbers bet on the first try, is that luck? When I hit over and over and over again with less than ten numbers bet, is that all chance?
I'd love to see some of the math people program my results into a computer and figure the odds of me doing what I have done on pure mathematical chance. They would be astronomical!
Twocat,
First off, you don't know how many spins you've played, or what your average bet even is.
Without some basic facts, it's not going to be possible to determine how much is by chance, and how much isn't. Right now, I'm guessing that's it's probably just luck. However, if you can be a little more scientific with the testing, then it would be easier to determine what's statistically significant, and what's not.
Secondly, are you playing on a real wheel or just the free mode on an RNG site?
-Herb
-Herb
I am playing at Bella Vegas, a real wheel (Microgaming) with real USD.
Sam
Sam,
I ,for one, have been following your testing with great interest.Although I havent watched any of your videos because I cant get them to work for some reason.
I have been testing it out on an RNG(cos I was frankly amazed that Winkel said it wouldnt matter ,so I wanted to see) and in just 600 spins(hardly gonna convince with that amount of spins I know) I was up 152u.Quite amazing!Especially when you consider I was down after my 1st 50 spins.I have also been following"what if" scenarios on Bet365 because I havent actually used it in real money ,so was just tracking ,and I would have won there too.
I agree with other posts that maybe it seemed a difficult system and therefore people have been put off and that also there is always the thrill of the system chase ,that to some is more fun than the winning !!!!! :o
Any way rest assured if you continue your postings I,for one,will be following.
Cheers mate.
The GUT thread is nearly 60 pages - a lot of reading to iron out all the times to bet and not to bet, rules etc and probably beyond the attention span of most.
I understand the system vaguely but it's not the simplest system. The more I read what some of the better players (dare I say "Pro's") say about minimizing time at the table the more it makes sense and this system, generally speaking keeps you seated for a while.
If it's working for you Sam, then stick with it. After all the work you put into it you deserve every cent!
Roules
Hi Sam,
I too have been interested in this thread, as well as the videos you have posted (including commentary).
But, as Roules posted, 60 pages does not make for easy reading.
Now if the existing thread could be reduced to (say) 5 pages and then locked, then you would have had a lot more interest.
Further discussion could then take place on another thread - just as you have done here.
All in all, though, I commend you for your efforts.
Regards
Mocco
Sam,
I experimented with the software posted for this system by Droidman and bjb007(where is he by the way?),
but could not get it to give the results I wanted to see. I can only concentrate on testing one thing at a time so the gut method fell by the wayside, aided by the fact that I didn't really understand it to tell you the truth.
As I always say, if it works use it. I hope you make heaps mate!
metalrat
Hi Sam, and all,
I agree with you.
It's certainly strange to see that methods where you have to think a bit and record some, are discarded by most people.
At the same time, simple "Bet Red - Bet Black" systems are tested and tried ad infinitum...
Proofreaders2000 wrote:
Quotehowever, you do [highlight]have to learn it[/highlight]
Shorty wrote:
Quoteit is a pretty [highlight]complex/hard to understand[/highlight] system
the_spiders_kiss wrote:
Quoteit seemed a [highlight]difficult system[/highlight]
roules wrote:
Quoteit's [highlight]not the simplest[/highlight] system
And regarding the
GUTsystem it's even more strange as it
is in fact a really simple system.
To me, the most complicated thing about the method was the explanation itself.
Fact is: The only "complicated" thing in the GUTsystem is to know what a "TRIGGER TO BET" is.
SO:
A trigger to bet in the "clinical way" is when you find that...
...numbers that have
never hit are
equal to OR
exactly one more than numbers that have
hit exactly once or exactly twiceWe call those triggers
"
=0 vs
=1" ("=0" for "
never hit" and "=1" for "
hit exactly once")
"
=0 vs
=2"
...numbers that have
never hit are
equal to OR
exactly one more than numbers that have
hit more than onceWe call that trigger
"
=0 vs
>1"
...numbers that have
hit exactly once are
equal to OR
exactly one more than numbers that have
hit exactly twiceWe call that trigger
"
=1 vs
=2"
...numbers that have
hit exactly once are
equal to OR
exactly one more than numbers that have
hit more than twiceWe call that trigger
"
=1 vs
>2" ("=1" for "
hit exactly once" and ">2" for "
hit more than twice")
There is ONE exception: When "=0 vs =1" triggers with 19 and 18 numbers respectively.
This trigger is not bet.
And for a REALLY simple way to track the GUT and visually understand how the method is working, you can do as I show here:
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/full-systems/guttracker-for-bandm-casinos/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/full-systems/guttracker-for-bandm-casinos/)
hoper35 wrote:
QuoteI`m better at B & M casinos, anyway, so I didn`t test it for very long
You can and may use it also in real casinos.
:D
IMPORTANT "clinical" GUT-rules:
Bet the numbers from the left category of the trigger ("=1 vs =2" you bet all 1-hit numbers)
Never bet more than 36u on a losing trigger
Stop after you have seen spin #50 or as soon as you have reached +40units or above
Moccoman wrote:
Quote
Now if the existing thread could be reduced to (say) 5 pages
So, there you are: One post here (this one) and a few posts in the above link.
And that's ALL info you need to use the GUTsystem the "clinical way".
Good Luck!
KFS
BTW...
The triggers shown above are for the "clinical way".A compilation of winkel's claims for that way is found here:
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/questions-and-comments-for-selected-systems/q-and-a-about-the-g-u-t-and-twocat%27s-last-test/30/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/questions-and-comments-for-selected-systems/q-and-a-about-the-g-u-t-and-twocat%27s-last-test/30/)
(Reply #34 - page 3)
Other triggers that
maybe can be used:
"=0 vs =3"
"=0 vs =4"...
"=0 vs >2"
"=0 vs >3"...
"=1 vs =3"
"=1 vs =4"...
"=1 vs >3"
"=1 vs >4"...
"=2 vs =3"
"=2 vs =4"...
"=2 vs >2"
"=2 vs >3"...
"=3 vs =4"
"=3 vs >4"... etc...
Simple systems don't need paper. If you don't need to track for the GUT then I congratulate you. :)
Thank you, KFS.
Shorty, I don't use pen and paper, but I use the Track4.
I hate to mix metaphors again, but I'm not trying to shove the G.U.T down anyone's throat! I'm going to fiddle around with enrique's system a while. He's not mad at me yet! :D Maybe I can stir up some interest there.
Sam
TwoCatSam,
Hello, mate! Congratulations for the good results.
We are all following your tests with a great interest.
You are such a big gentleman, you know? It's not easy to meet many people like you today.
Tell you all why? He is so determined to share his success... that he is even angry at all of us,
because nobody seems interested in something they should be interested in! Really, Sam is a great man.
In my honest opinion, statements such as 'sixty pages topic is too big' are just ridiculous.
Of course it would be much better, but it should not be a problem here.
For me, personally, the test made by Kon-Fu-Sed (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/testing-zone/kfs'-gut-test/) and his conclusions were the main reason not to study
the G.U.T. I just do not believe it is a better system than many of the other systems around. My suggestion
on how to make your videos and threads more popular? Stick with your winning system for a while... enough
time to build a massive bankroll... and then post some pictures of you driving new Bugatti on Bahamas,
accompanied by new 21-years-old wife... I think that will do it! :D
Giggity giggity giggity giggity goo! (nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Quagmire)
Thank you for all your effort and help.
And keep up the good work, buddy!
Regards,
m
mistarlupo
Thanks! Very kind words!
I will do my best to run up such a bankroll someone has to want to learn the G.U.T.
But, no new "Trophy" wife. The old one is almost trained!
Sam
Hi sam!
I would like to thank you aswell, you are doing a really great piece of work!
I am also always following your posts with great joy, and maybe in one out of five I watch the video aswell, but I think I already know how the system works, so thats why I dont watch all the video's and sometime I just dont have the time... The one's that I actually watched, was very helpful in learning the method, and when I get some more time, i'm sure I will look closer at these threads. And do some testing also. Unfortunately I still have a real job, and fortunately a real girlfriend :D so it's limited time that I have for this stuff.
If you stop posting videos, I really hope that you will still be posting the stats for your sessions - it is very encouraging to see your bankroll grow. And I don't think anyone would suspect you of showing false results.
I'm really looking forward for you to reach the 1000 units. Then I think I will start playing aswell... 8)
But I agree that it's a bit odd, that the systems claimed to work longtime, arent neccesarily the ones people discuss around here. However I still admit, that I too enjoy the "thrill" of reading about a new and Simple system...
Anyway Sam, please keep up the good work. Thank you.
I would also like to say a BIG THANK YOU! to Winkel, whom brought this fine system to our attention. I hope you are still around here from time to time friend.
And to KFS for his huge contribution of tests and explanations of this system, it is truly great.
[smiley=thumbsup.gif] [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif] [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Best Regards
Kingpin
Kingpin
Thank you!
I will continue to post my results.
Sam
Checked a few hundred of my Wild Jack spins. GUT looks better against them than my B&M spins.
Ron.
@Sam/anyone
Has anyone discussed creating software/xl sheet that can track AND show when/where to bet?
I ask this at the risk of sounding lazy but it's a good way to build confidence running x amount of numbers in testing before playing live. I realize it could be a big ask of the author/Sam/Winkel to make such a thing public though. And I don't mean running 1000 numbers straight through either. Such would be done adhering to perhaps KFS's 40 units per session target or a reasonable stop loss of your choice.
Thoughts...?
Sam
I have bucket loads of admiration and respect for you, and other forum members, that go to the efforts they choose to in analysing, testing and asking the questions that need to be asked, and those producing the software that makes players lives that much easier. The forum is a great melting pot and I don't think it would work and function as well as it does without the commitment of all the contributors like you.
If it means much coming from a 'junior' member I am with you on GUT. From my first delving into the thread (sometime ago) it held some degree of intrigue, as sad as that may sound. However, I carried on doing the things I was doing, dabbled in some others, and kept coming back from time to time to get a better understanding of GUT.
Winkel, and various posts, eventually changed the switch from off to on for me. I finally got a handle on how I could 'see' the cycle of the numbers hit and how it may be possible to apply it. I am now devoting my free time to testing this with live spins and real money.
It does not use the same betting triggers as Winkels recommendations and it is very early days. I started with the huge bankroll of $14.42 (originally $20 until I finalised the strategy) and after 23 betting spins over 10 separate games the bankroll is now $15.64, using 1 cent units per number played. A 122 unit increase over 23 betting spins. Prior to live play I paper tested all the live spin data I have accumulated, including some of your 5000 spins, so that I had a rough idea about how things may play out.
My intention has always been to post the results once I had played 100 games and I will do this. I am keeping records of play data as evidence of the final outcome.
I enjoy your tongue in cheek, and not always so subtle sense of humour, and hope that health wise you are continuing to improve.
Regards, Steve
Personaly I dont believe in tracking numbers or outcomes, because every spin is on its own. The only way to win at roulette is to bet every spin (otherwise your just wasting time...) and very very very good money management. (this is just my humble opinion.)
Ka2
I started this "Final" test of the G.U.T with $201 and bet .50 until I doubled that amount. I then went to $1 bets and am at $657 as of yesterday. The G.U.T does not depend on number being associated or connected; it depends on a simple theory that if 19 numbers in your trot have not hit and 18 have, the data points will exchange and you will have 18 numbers that have not hit and 19 that have.
I have a certain amount of faith in winkel's G.U.T.
Sam
As you said earlier i think that you played for 10 hours or so with this system, waiting for the right signals. Say you won 10 times and lost 40 times in 200 spins... do a simple test in 20 spins with random numbers, i'll bet that you also win 1 and lose 4. Meaning to say because you play longer and waiting for signals, it takes longer to get a losing streak.
Same as waiting for 7 reds to appear and bet on black. (with a 3 step small progresion) it takes a long time playing and you will win most of the time, you think you have the holy grail, until that 11 red losing streak comes around and destroys your bankroll.
I'm glad to hear that you are stil winning, I really really hope it stays that way. But i'm affraid it is just luck.
Steveh3167
Thanks you!
I do not want to sound like a braggart, but I made the videos because I think I understand winkel and if others don't, they may understand me. I did not understand Victor when he explained the Lw system, but I did understand Lanky.
Lanky also taught me that the only real way to learn was to bet real money, even dimes. So if you're betting .10 and you're winning, you're a winner just as sure as if you were betting $10. When I started betting .50 and winning, my confidence level improved. The first time I tried $1 bets, I tanked the system. Just couldn't think. Now I bet dollars with ease.
Yesterday I dropped down $102 and was very worried. Then the wheel became my friend and I went up some $62 or so and quit. Then I went up again and finished the day at +$103. When I go to $5 that would multiply to $515--not bad for two hours work.
So bet your .10 or .25 and just learn. Remember, the goal is NOT to make money; it's to learn the system by increasing your bankroll.
Keep up the good work!
Sam
Ka2
First, I use the Microgaming live wheel. If that's not true roulette numbers, I don't know what is.
Secondly, 20 numbers is not enough to even get the 19/18 crossing. I usually start betting about 30 or so numbers into the trot.
I have always allowed it might just be luck. Lanky goes to the casino and wins year after year. He is my role model. All I ever want to do is be a "lucky" as Lanky! Then I'll be happy and my wife will get her new floor!
Sam
Like i said i realy realy hope it works out for you, you deserve it.
hoper35
If the Bella Vegas wheel is a live wheel spun by a live human, why is it different than a B & M casino. If I had a Huxley wheel, perfectly level, in my office and a professional dealer spinning it, would it not be the same as a B & M casino.
Bro, I'd love to use this live at a B & M. In fact, I am working on developing a pen and paper Track4. I must train my mind to do what Track4 does, but I can do it.
Also, since a crossing is a crossing is a crossing, you could just as easily use the 00 wheel. You would still incur the 2 vs >2 crossing and it could be 13/12.
Work hard, mate! It's worth it!
Sam
Ka2
I appreciate your good wishes. I want it to work out for me and then teach it to others. I'm pulling for Mr Chips to win like crazy with the 4Selecta and for enrique's "Winning Edge" to be just that. If one person makes it to the Winner's Circle, we all can!
If we want to badly enough!!
Thanks again!
Sam
A personal note: If winkel is sick and his time is short--and I believe him--I want to be one of those persons who tells the world what he did.
Quoteappreciate your good wishes. I want it to work out for me and then teach it to others. I'm pulling for Mr Chips to win like crazy with the 4Selecta and for enrique's "Winning Edge" to be just that. If one person makes it to the Winner's Circle, we all can!
If we want to badly enough!!
Thanks again!
Sam
A personal note: If winkel is sick and his time is short--and I believe him--I want to be one of those persons who tells the world what he did
. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Winkel and Mr. Chips don't have long term winning systems. lol.
KonFuSed already proved this much. Not to mention the fact that both systems have gambler's fallacy at their root.
Also, Twocat, your just a few hundred thousand spins short of proving Winkel's system works.
-Herb
hermes
There are so many hundreds of variables in the way the lines set up, I don't know if it could ever be programmed into a computer. In the videos, I tried to explain how the trot was not setting up well, how the 1s were way out front and when time to bet came, a 1 would probably get you. Look at this:
[table=]
0,,,1,,,>1
10,,,15,,,10
10,,,14,,,11
10,,,13,,,12
10,,,12,,,13
10,,,11,,,14
[/table]
Look how the 0 is constant because the 1 is getting all the hits. What does this mean? The 0 is "due" to hit and the 1 is hitting and causing this to occur. The 1 has hit too many times and the 0 not enough. (I know there is no such thing as "due".) This is only one of dozens of scenarios that occur during a trot. The above is absolutely one of the best times to bet. I once said I should bet $10 per number as the win rate is so high.
In the above, nothing can kill your crossing for at least one bet. If the 1 hits you have 10/10, still a crossing. If the 0 hits, you win. If any other number hits, it stays 10/11. You are guaranteed two bites at the apple if the first one doesn't fill your mouth.
This is one of dozens--to repeat myself. When you learn these, you are money ahead! winkel called it "gambler's intelligence".
Sam
-Herb
Thanks, Bro. When you laugh at me, you just steel my resolve! If I win my $2,000 a lot of the credit will fall to you!
By the way, that is my goal: Reach $1,000 ($657 now) and begin making $5 at the $1,000 mark and win and withdraw $2,000.
Then I may have a statement to make. Otherwise, I may have just been lucky.
Sam
I'm looking forward to the "Holy Grail" statement. What a Christmas gift that would be!
MAYBE YOU SHOULD BUILD A 5$ BANKROLL (3000$) AND THEN WITHDRAW ANY PROFITS AFTER....INSTEAD OF STARTING OVER WITH 0.50$ BET
OR
1$=600$
2$=1200$
3$=1800$
4$=2400$
Sam,
I see your over $770 now....way to go!!!!.....I am also trying G.U.T. out in real play but seem to be struggling currently down $6 in 210 spins(not alot I know) but still cant get into the positive for some reason...any how you go and get that $GRAND!!!!!! :D
TSK
Kompressor
I am going to $2 bets when I hit $800. From then, I will just have to decide.
kiss
Thanks for the encouragement. Keep working it!!
Sam
Quote from: roules on November 25, 2008, 05:48:28 AM
@Sam/anyone
Has anyone discussed creating software/xl sheet that can track AND show when/where to bet?
I ask this at the risk of sounding lazy but it's a good way to build confidence running x amount of numbers in testing before playing live. I realize it could be a big ask of the author/Sam/Winkel to make such a thing public though. And I don't mean running 1000 numbers straight through either. Such would be done adhering to perhaps KFS's 40 units per session target or a reasonable stop loss of your choice.
Thoughts...?
Found this but it's not there it seems....
nolinks://vlsroulette.com/bjb007%27s-common-sense-way/crossings-checker-vr2-51/ (nolinks://vlsroulette.com/bjb007%27s-common-sense-way/crossings-checker-vr2-51/)
I GOT IT!!
Why we're here!! To convert -Herb and free him from the Dark Side!! (Smacking self upside head....) How could I be so blind? :-\
Sam
Good luck Sam. ;)
QuoteThere are so many hundreds of variables in the way the lines set up, I don't know if it could ever be programmed into a computer. In the videos, I tried to explain how the trot was not setting up well, how the 1s were way out front and when time to bet came, a 1 would probably get you. Look at this:
0 1 >1
10 15 10
10 14 11
10 13 12
10 12 13
10 11 14
Look how the 0 is constant because the 1 is getting all the hits. What does this mean? The 0 is "due" to hit and the 1 is hitting and causing this to occur. The 1 has hit too many times and the 0 not enough. (I know there is no such thing as "due".) This is only one of dozens of scenarios that occur during a trot. The above is absolutely one of the best times to bet. I once said I should bet $10 per number as the win rate is so high.
In the above, nothing can kill your crossing for at least one bet. If the 1 hits you have 10/10, still a crossing. If the 0 hits, you win. If any other number hits, it stays 10/11. You are guaranteed two bites at the apple if the first one doesn't fill your mouth.
This is one of dozens--to repeat myself. When you learn these, you are money ahead! winkel called it "gambler's intelligence".
Sam
This is very interesting Sam, please share more of these "gambler's intelligence" hints, as you see them in the G.U.T.
Best Regards
Kingpin