VLS Roulette Forum

At the forum we have the following major goals for 2009:

- Actuals bot (bringing daily actuals for building an ever-increasing fresh actuals library).
- Challenge engine (hosting realtime competitions).
- Testing bot (run system scripts automatically and post daily system charts and overall results for multiple systems).
- Community roulette table (place to hang-out and share table with forum fellows, chat-enabled).

As coding time is limited, please choose your picks for priority. For serving the community better.

Kind regards.
Victor

Quote from: VLSroulette on January 27, 2009, 08:50:15 PM
At the forum we have the following major goals for 2009:

- Actuals bot (bringing daily actuals for building an ever-increasing fresh actuals library).
- Challenge engine (hosting realtime competitions).
- Testing bot (run system scripts automatically and post daily system charts and overall results for multiple systems).
- Community roulette table (place to hang-out and share table with forum fellows, chat-enabled).

Here is a goal which is tougher to code... making people explore ideas without some members displaying a patronizingly superior attitude.

Good luck.

Quote from: Arteinvivo on January 27, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
Here is a goal which is tougher to code... making people explore ideas without some members displaying a patronizingly superior attitude.

Good luck.

Arty! I'm only human mate, I can't code a tolerance/humble button on people!

LOL - I wish Arte!

MM

Quote from: Arteinvivo on January 27, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
Here is a goal which is tougher to code... making people explore ideas without some members displaying a patronizingly superior attitude.

Good luck.

Arte, I would rather bury the hatchet. Can the exploration of ideas lead to anything that the casino owners might use? If a casino sees an advantage from a playing style, method, or system wouldn't that casino close down that advantage? Is it not each person's responsibility to protect any real advantage in order to exploit that advantage while it still exists? Is it possible to be perceived as cruel, that holding back and protecting, even when being hounded as to the higher good of sharing, that advantage, and killing it in the process? Is it really wrong?

Does a person have the right to protect a thing of value?

QuoteIs it not each person's responsibility to protect any real advantage in order to exploit that advantage

Bliss has asked the right question in this regard. Even though you would explain your modus operandi, nobody would be able to duplicate exactly your technique as you do. In that sense, you technique is protected. I told you about it many times, even though Carlos Santana would teach me his secret chord progression that would not stop him from making money with his music and that would not stop the industry to operate as it has always done.  There is something deeply sad and puerile about this condescending attitude. That's the main reason why i have had problems with you and why i decided to stop posting. It just is not worth it in my mind.

Quote from: Arteinvivo on January 27, 2009, 10:30:13 PM
There is something deeply sad and puerile about this condescending attitude which i can't accept or even understand. That's the main reason why i have had problems with you and why i decided to stop posting.

I have known it all along. I have known that you can't stand it, that I refuse to kill my dreams so that you can say you hung out with the Zin Master. If I loved you more than my own life I would throw you off a mountain, just to catch you with my rope, just to show you what a jerk you can be. You need someone to share with you the value of things. You need to experience everything you own being taken away from you, like a fire, a tornado, or a hurricane. You actually want the power to destroy Roulette. And you actually want to have it given to you because sharing and losing something in the same moment is a higher form of aspirations. And you think I have an attitude problem.

Now isn't that better getting it off your chest? Now everyone knows why I was tempted to illustrate giving it all away. My baloney joke was me falling to earth and handing the holy grail over to everyone.

If we were Indians of the old west we would scalp each other or die trying. I will never fall to the intimidation that protecting my own is only to be perceived as a condescending attitude.  It's more than that will ever be. And most of all, I still control it.

Am I the only one that regards protection of an advantage as having a value? So what that I torment Arte. He never persuaded me to give it up. Victor, --this discussion is totally at the heart of the spirit of this forum. It's just painful to hear the words.

Is it not each person's responsibility to protect any real advantage in order to exploit that advantage<<<

Absolutely! People always point to Thorp for writing his book on card counting and how stupid he was to give his method away. But times were different in the late 50's. There were no casinos in the States outside of Vegas. And Vegas itself was tiny compared to now. And Thorp wasn't a gambler, he was a math professor who hated gambling.

If he had discovered card counting 30 years later, I can guarantee his attitude would have been different.

Hi Victor,

I didn't vote. There was no option for me ;)

From my experiences of projects I'd say:

Order everything by the hours it will take to code.
First code what requires the least time.
Last you code what takes the longest time.

Otherwise there's a HUGE risk that the quickies will "never" be done and we have to wait for "an eternity" for the first addition.

Thanks for all the effort you put into this, Victor!
KFS

as the casinos have not changed the rules of roulette. no foolproof system is operating.

Quote from: Kon-Fu-Sed on January 28, 2009, 06:50:43 AM
Order everything by the hours it will take to code.
First code what requires the least time.
Last you code what takes the longest time.

Ah dear KFS, that's the way the common-sense approach dictates, and was my first option as a coder... shall this be a normal assignment! My 2nd-hand common sense spoke and then reasoned on how about coding features which aren't to be really used first? While the ones which would be appreciated the most are still at the queue? (Regardless of coding difficulty). Then I hit "post new poll". [smiley=im/v6eyes.gif]

Hey Victor.

To be honest, they all are great so It's a bit hard to pick.

Let's see...
Actuals bot: would be great! but we can still wait for those.
Challenge engine: would be super fun! but I guess we could also wait.
Community roulette table: (same as above)
Testing bot: this, I can't wait for. :)

So I would sort them like this:

The serious/useful stuff:
1) Testing bot
2) Actuals bot

Then, the fun stuff:
3) Community roulette table
4) Challenge engine

Thanks for the great efforts Victor.
VLSroulette.com is THE BEST! :thumbsup:

Regards,
Marven

My vote goes to the actuals bot as a priority. Reason being: Don't you need a ready supply of actuals to run each of the other 3 projects?

I think it would be better to have a section "code for dummies" where every one can make there own code and get help from others.
Better then that the majority should depend upon a few.
There is a lot of members ho knows C++ and Java and there i a lot of free software and sites about it.

I think it would be great to see how members interact and learn, this is what this forum is about.

That is my vote.

LS

Victor

Before I vote, could you give a brief example of what the challenge and testing bots do? 

Are you accepting suggestions for an automatic number giver/results recorder as we once spoke about?

Sam

Quote from: Lucky StrikeThere is a lot of members ho knows C++ and Java and there i a lot of free software and sites about it.

LS, both of these languages are more suited to professional programmers.  C++ is a terrible language for a newbie, trust me on this. Java is easier to learn but still heavyweight and not particularly suited to the kind of coding that's needed for testing systems, it's also very verbose (you need to do a lot of typing). Both of them are object-oriented, which adds to the learning curve.

I would recommend Python as a first language: nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide (nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide)

@Marven
Thanks for your kind words. Notice taken on the serious stuff first.

@Bliss
"Don't you need a ready supply of actuals to run each of the other 3 projects?"

There's already like 4.000.000 spins to be provided by kelly, as well as the other legacy spins like the ones at wiesbaden, so we aren't to be precisely short on existing actuals... the bot is only to fetch and bring new daily ones in an automated fashion, to increase the library by the day! Useful, yes, but we could live a few months with previous ones ;)

@Lucky Strike
"I think it would be better to have a section "code for dummies" where every one can make there own code and get help from others."
Days on which people needs an RX coder are to be over as we are to use the flexible php language as scripting language. :thumbsup:

It is easy to learn AND base functions such as whichDozen, whichColumn, bankroll, neighbours and others are to be included by default at the testing environment so people can focus on their system's functionality and not writing core functions.

You can start fiddling with the PHP language at nolinks.php.net (nolinks://nolinks.php.net)

Of course, file functions are to be disabled. Only file access needed I think is for reading the actuals folder.
This scripting implementation still needs more logistics, but by using the free php language for everyone from newbies to old timers to code is good. Like Lanky would say, a "W".

@Samster
"could you give a brief example of what the challenge and testing bots do? &nbsp;"
Challenge engine IS the "automatic number giver/results recorder" as we once spoke! (Challenge-o-matic, that's just a rename).

Testing bot is setup to build a library of results from systems against recorded actuals. User inputs a system script, saves it to the server, and chooses casino & date range to test the system against. Results are then posted at a single thread at the testing section for the benefit of everyone, charts included.

Also it can be setup to test against FUTURE actuals (after the actuals bot is running daily).

This can be achieved by locking up system script from edits and have it scheduled to be run starting one day after submission using actuals as they come daily. This will be the definite tool against a system being accused with "reverse engineering" arguments.

Kind regards,
Victor

lol, looks like we've got a language war starting here.  ;D

It's funny how coders get attached to their favourite programming language, next Arte will appear with many reasons to use excel.  ;)

LS, aren't you using Linux? you should already have Python installed. I'm not trying to plug it (in fact, it's not the language I use), but I think it's one of the best as a first programming language.

Quote from: VLSroulette on January 28, 2009, 03:06:12 PM
Days on which people needs an RX coder are to be over as we are to use the flexible php language as scripting language. :thumbsup:

It is easy to learn AND base functions such as whichDozen, whichColumn, bankroll, neighbours and others are to be included by default at the testing environment so people can focus in their system's functionality and not writing core functions.

You can start fiddling with the PHP language at nolinks.php.net (nolinks://nolinks.php.net)
Victor

COOL! I'll just learn PHP  What war?

Victor, not arguing with you regarding PHP, but don't you need a server to run it? just thinking it might be tricky for a newbie to set up...

Quote from: Bliss on January 28, 2009, 03:03:29 PMI would recommend Python as a first language: nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide (nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide)

Pascal is another option as teaching language. I don't really like Delphi, but it's good for beginners.
Regarding the new coding section, it's a nice idea but let's first have this testing bot done.

Take care,
m

We all need to look at PHP for two reasons: it is FREE and it is server-based (as the testing bot is).

With a generous upgrade we will hopefully be able to work with uncompressed actuals for superb batch-testing speeds! (better if the server don't need to uncompress zipped files to run tests, although we know plain text vs compressed files ratio can get huge, who cares, if we get resources we better squeeze them [smiley=laugh.gif] ).

By the way, only 2 days to move from this server! I'm already scrubbing the web for the best providers. Subscriptions from these two days till Feb. 01 will determine what service will we move to :thumbsup:, so if some of you guys want to be supporting, this is the best time!

Hey Gizmo! Runtime Rev. sounds good for the fellows to learn for offline testing. Feel free to submit your own tutorials to our coding zone [smiley=thumbup.gif]. The more roulette coders at the community the better, no matter which language :)

Regards.
Victor

Quote from: VictorThere's already like 4.000.000 spins to be provided by kelly, as well as the other legacy spins like the ones at wiesbaden, so we aren't to be precisely short on existing actuals... the bot is only to fetch and bring new daily ones in an automated fashion, to increase the library by the day! Useful, yes, but we could live a few months with previous ones

ok, point taken Victor. In that case my vote goes to the testing bot.

Quote from: Bliss on January 28, 2009, 03:25:42 PM
Victor, not arguing with you regarding PHP, but don't you need a server to run it? just thinking it might be tricky for a newbie to set up...

Not neccesarily, we just provide a ready-to-use testing environment at our newly-gotten server when we move, precisely to avoid people to hire/setup hosting just to learn. As it is free for all, with a large userbase of roulette programmers testing and submitting scripts to run continually, they'll be sorry for hosting us [smiley=lolk.gif], but the roulette community will benefit!

This time we intend to squeeze the resources and make it truly the roulette-community-oriented server!
Victor

QuoteLS, both of these languages are more suited to professional programmers.&nbsp; C++ is a terrible language for a newbie, trust me on this. Java is easier to learn but still heavyweight and not particularly suited to the kind of coding that's needed for testing systems, it's also very verbose (you need to do a lot of typing). Both of them are object-oriented, which adds to the learning curve.

I would recommend Python as a first language: nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide (nolinks://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide)

Thanks Bliss.
That is what i need, learn the easy but effective way to develop as an person and as an part of my hobby.

QuoteLS, aren't you using Linux?

Yes i am :)

LS

Quote from: VLSroulette on January 28, 2009, 03:29:39 PM

Hey Gizmo! Runtime Rev. sounds good for the fellows to learn for offline testing. Feel free to submit your own tutorials to our coding zone [smiley=thumbup.gif]. The more roulette coders at the community the better, no matter which language :)

RunRev is coming out with an embedded plug-in, like shockwave. I will be able to put up working examples of sims, where the user can specify the groups to be tested. They will be viewable by just clicking on the web page, but they will get their processing power from each viewers own computer. In that way your servers won't take a processing hit. I can teach that too. I'm an advanced developer for beta testing new features for RunRev. Do you allow the embed tag?

Example HTML

<object width="550" height="400">
<param name="movie" value="somefilename.swf">
<embed src="somefilename.swf" width="550" height="400">
</embed>
</object>

Your feature could be one lined:

[embed src="nolinks://nolinks.myplace.com/somefilename.swf" width="550" height="400"]My Sim for Martingale[/embed]

@ LS, if you're running Ubuntu, open a terminal (click on Applications/Accessories/Terminal), then type "python". You should get this appearing:

Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, Jul 31 2008, 17:28:52)
[GCC 4.2.3 (Ubuntu 4.2.3-2ubuntu7)] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.


Then type:

print "hello world"

you've just written your first Python program.  ;)

@ Victor, that sounds great, I might even learn PHP myself.

Thanks Bliss.
I run Ubuntu and it works.

Bliss you make me so [smiley=1/jump.gif]

(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fimg231.imageshack.us%2Fimg231%2F4139%2Fskrmbildpatrikpatriklaphj6.png&hash=1f2ba11b762669de9231980ae970b7e9639b4b6a)

LS

Victor
Testing bot gets my vote.
What a  8) thing to have
TSK

Hi Victor,

I wrote:

Quote

From my experiences of projects I'd say:

Having second thoughts: I've never been involved in a project that hasn't got a time-frame.
;)

I vote for the testing-bot.

/KFS

OK Victor, it's becoming obvious that a testing bot is going to be the winner.

I think I would love to see the syntax for the coding. I mean the simplified function list for non programmers to create sims and experiments. Have you got an idea for this? I might be interested in developing the exact same function library in a stand alone app too.

Like repeat loops might be something like:

begin testTimes = 10000
  ...
  ...
end testTimes

It's possible to create a new computer language you know. Perhaps there are already suggestions for an syntax?

What do you think?

@ Lucky, you're welcome mate, hope you enjoy learning Python.

Quote from: GizmoIt's possible to create a new computer language you know. Perhaps there are already suggestions for an syntax?

Or you could have a program with no syntax, which would make it much more user-friendly. This would essentially be something like a database of spins on which you could make "queries". But instead of using SQL, there would be pull-down menus from which you could make choices. From the developer's point of view this would mean having variables which would accept values input by the user. For example, you could have some "high level" design construct like this:

Bet X numbers for Y spins on condition Z

Then you would break this down by providing a menu selection for X (input the amount of numbers, and/or various locations on the layout), and another one for Y and a "conditions" menu for Z. The user would simply click the menu item, or enter numbers into a text box. Each combination of selections would constitute a system, which would then be simulated and the results returned, maybe with some additional stats.

Obviously this could get very complex, depending on how many conditions you could dream up, especially if you were to add a menu for progressions.

I think something like this would be far more likely to be actually used by people, although it wouldn't have the flexibility of a "syntax" solution. Look what happened with RX - although many people had it, I'll wager that very few actually bothered to learn the language, they used it to play the game and maybe look at the stats.
I don't know, but I'm guessing a "point & click" menu solution would involve more work for the developer though.

Quote from: Gizmotron on January 29, 2009, 07:54:37 AM
OK Victor, it's becoming obvious that a testing bot is going to be the winner.

I think I would love to see the syntax for the coding. I mean the simplified function list for non programmers to create sims and experiments. Have you got an idea for this? I might be interested in developing the exact same function library in a stand alone app too.

Like repeat loops might be something like:

begin testTimes = 10000
&nbsp; ...
&nbsp; ...
end testTimes

It's possible to create a new computer language you know. Perhaps there are already suggestions for an syntax?

What do you think?

Mark, I get your point. People would enjoy it better the easier the language.

An offline version of a server-implemented language could add for people not to use the server for learning, only for the actual testing. (I don't think they would be much into running the gazillion spins tests at their own PC's though... ).

Regarding making a new language from scratch, perhaphs it takes more than what we can afford to wait. Php is already there for the taking! But as it will there forever we can have multi-language bots, why not?  PHP and any other one which could be constructed by us.

In fact, a scripting language can be PARSED internally by php :) so we could be able to code a new language by having php parsing input text at an html form, that's all is needed. User inputs script into textbox and submits. Isn't it?

I am willing to open the door to any language-parsing engine, as long as it is php-based.

Perhaphs a new "Revo-Gizmo" language? :)

For making your language, you can start by learning how to get posted data and parse text strings. In php it is actually easy, you use the $_POST array, with HTML text field name, like this: $_POST["input_field"]. It is really a sweet language this PHP: nolinks.php.net (nolinks://nolinks.php.net)

Quote from: Bliss on January 29, 2009, 09:41:04 AM

Bet X numbers for Y spins on condition Z

Then you would break this down by providing a menu selection for X (input the amount of numbers, and/or various locations on the layout), and another one for Y and a "conditions" menu for Z. The user would simply click the menu item, or enter numbers into a text box. Each combination of selections would constitute a system, which would then be simulated and the results returned, maybe with some additional stats.

I know. I build object oriented functionality into almost all my apps.

When I post hard coded sims here I do it so that it exists mostly in its simplest form to understand it by reading it.

I would make it simple:

1. begin step(1)

2. bet unit amount(5)

3. bet this list of numbers("1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,")

4. bet for (300) spins

5. on condition (change on (4) losses)

5. bet unit amount(15)

7. bet this list of numbers("13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,") on change

8. on condition (change on (2) losses)

9. bet unit amount(5)

10. bet this list of numbers("1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,") on change

11. begin step(2)

12.  ... etc...

------


I agree with you. If the sim bot language is not simple, nobody is going to use it.

Victor, I might be misunderstanding what you are proposing. Are you suggesting that users here on this forum learn to program in PHP?

I looked more into this language. It makes the server take the hit. When a million spin sim is run it's going to clobber the server. Wouldn't it be better to have each user's computer do this? Wouldn't a flash application, java applet, etc... work faster?

I really could use some input from non programmers on things they would like to test. I can imagine. There are those that would like to start at Martingale and move up from there.

I just can't imagine multiple users hitting the server at the same time, that can then run these simulations, and having that send out results without it crashing the server.

I don't get this at all.