VLS Roulette Forum

Found on another forum. . .
Must be read by all of you  :)

Advice from a Software Engineer

Hi Folks,

First of all let me introduce myself.  I'm new here and I would like to give you my humble opinion about online gambling on roulette (Sorry for my bad english).  I'm graduated in Computer Science and System Engineer and in the last 8 years I've been developing software for several companies, including online casinos.  As you already know there're several types of RNG.  On the past almost all the online casinos were using Pseudo Random Number Generators (learn more in wikipedia).  PRNG output numbers based on known seeds (normally a date/time) and it's major flaw is that over time and with historical data you can predict what's the next number that the RNG will output.  Since this is a major flaw all the online casinos today moved away from PRNG to True Random Number Generators (if you're curious search Lava Rand in google ).  TRNG outputs numbers that isn't correlated with each other, which means that historical data means nothing.  a TRNG can output for instance the number 4 indefinitely. So said this I'm kind of risking my reputation with the information that I'll give you (I'll not tell names).  Most of the available online casinos doesn't play fair (as you guess it).  Online casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win.  Most of the time you're not sensible enough to notice that because the casino cannot win all the time so win from time to time.  What you must know is that online casinos stipulates a bar of gains (for month for instance) and never let the casino drop below that line.  So when the casino is winning money it progressively let you win some hands/money but in the end if the casino is losing you'll eventually lose all your money, because they'll fix the output.  Mind that what I'm saying is a very risk statement but I know what I'm talking about.  Almost all online casinos doesn't play fair for roulette.  So I'm sorry if I break your dream of getting rich gambling in online roulettes.  I'm a gambler too and I'm very interested in Cryptography and RNG.  So if you're the kind of person (like me) that loves to gamble I suggest that you do it in real casinos.  Why ? Simple croupiers can be studied, you can learn how the croupier spin the ball, how many times the ball spin after outputing a number and you can adjust your game to guess the numbers.

I hope that you're clever enough to take my advice in consideration and don't let yourself be fooled by online casinos.  I've participated in developing gambling software and I know what I'm talking about.

Thank you for the attention and time.

Hi  mike wery interesting  post i thing that most of  gamblers HOPE so  know  about this  and will be little  safe them  for   not  play  RNG

Just what I've been saying for years.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your opinion.

QuoteAlmost all online casinos doesn't play fair for roulette.

Yes, it's called the house edge.  :)

QuoteSo when the casino is winning money it progressively let you win some hands/money but in the end if the casino is losing you'll eventually lose all your money, because they'll fix the output.

I don't buy into this. I've no personal experience of it and without hard evidence I've no intention of buying into it. Whenever I play online I always keep a log of the outcomes and analyze them for fairness using several sophisticated statistical tests, I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever of foul play.

QuoteOnline casinos are using Fixed True Random Number Generators, which means that if the casino is losing money they'll manipulate the draw number to not let you win.

This is a very serious accusation. Have you posted on the casinomeister forum? I'm sure they would be very interested to get some details.

QuoteWhat you must know is that online casinos stipulates a bar of gains (for month for instance) and never let the casino drop below that line.

Most supposedly reputable online casinos are audited by a third party. If what you say is true then this anomaly would certainly be noticed and action taken.

as roulette can not be beaten how would the casino lose. live dealers or not the results are the same. how can you guess where the ball will land. you could have a hundred or more guesses and not pick a winner,somedays winning is easy. and some days you lose the lot.

Hello Mike.OFF.  I believe what you say about RNGs to be true (That's why there are so many RNG casinos.)  Online live wheels (from my experience) I believe to be fixed as well.  Land based are the way to go (cautiously).

The options are 2...

1) This is not true.

2) This is true but they don't care how much i win or my wins are too small for this kind of control.

Anyway, i like rng and with money management can be used to make good profit.

Hi everybody, my first post. .

So, a quick one, what casinos do you play on Bliss?

Quote from: Bliss link=topic=12174. msg77585#msg77585 date=1252836223
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your opinion. 

Yes, it's called the house edge.   :)

I don't buy into this.  I've no personal experience of it and without hard evidence I've no intention of buying into it.  Whenever I play online I always keep a log of the outcomes and analyze them for fairness using several sophisticated statistical tests, I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever of foul play.

This is a very serious accusation.  Have you posted on the casinomeister forum? I'm sure they would be very interested to get some details. 

Most supposedly reputable online casinos are audited by a third party.  If what you say is true then this anomaly would certainly be noticed and action taken. 

I don't believe a word of it. It's pure conjecture. People who complain about fixed RNGs are people who lose because their system crashed. Why is that so hard to accept? I have won enough from RNGs to satisfy my own theories that they are fair. There are obviously some rogue casinos who do blatantly cheat by paying out less than they should, but they always get caught by the authorities because, as Bliss says, they are audited regularly to ensure their payouts are at acceptable levels. All RNGs are programmed to pay out in the region of 97.3%. What is the big deal? They always win anyway. Sure, they could cheat the auditors by doctoring their accounts, but in a sane world you aren't going to risk your whole enterprise for the sake of a few thousand chips.

This debate will go on for ever until someone comes forward with EVIDENCE that a BIG online casino cheats. But no one will do that. They don't cheat, most people just can't beat them.

Well said Number Six, my thoughts exactly.

Quote from: M0FoSo, a quick one, what casinos do you play on Bliss?

I have accounts at 32red, bet365, blue square, and Betvoyager. Betvoyager is the only one that hasn't been accredited by casinomeister, but I've had no problems with it.

Come on guys, use your common sense and do your "due diligence", but to dismiss all online casinos as crooks is paranoid nonsense.

I agree with #6. No one hear could beat RX convincingly. Then how r u going to beat casino's RNG. Anyway any thought about Bally's Rapid roulette?

No. 6 you are the one telling everyone that systems do not work. Fair enough. In that case how can you say that people losing on rng are people who's systems do not work? Sory to say this to you but you must be a total idiot (or a online casino rep) if you for one instance believe that rng is fair. I believe what Mike is saying. What he forgot to tell you is that rng is programmed to pick up progressions. Why do you think casino's can have these min/max 10c min per number and $400 max per number. No BM casino will give you that spread.................wonder why? If you tell me that you are beating rng consistently and clearly are profitting ....... then you are just talking to the birds.

I personally have won on rng. Almost everytime. Then up to a point then it get's impossible. Funny. (yes the reason might be what Mike was referring to) Funny thing is that if I had 10k and started of on 10c bets I promise you I will lose on a progression and after that the very next spin my number will come in lol......get real.

6, let's face it mate you like to be in the middle of the spotlight. Whatever the topic is....you will be on the opposite side.

This debate gets under my skin. I don't put myself in the spotlight, I hardly even visit this forum any more. I'm just sick of all this ignorance and stupidity. No one has any evidence that online casinos cheat. You are just a bunch of sore losers who don't know the first thing about the stochastic process.

Jakkalsdraai, I have won thousands of ££ in one sitting from an RNG before. I witnessed a friend of mine, in a drunken trance, win £10000 from a £500 bankroll. That was on a playtech casino. You are paranoid and spreading delusions, making accusations and issuing theories that quite frankly I find incredibly stupid. If you think RNGs are fixed, then don't play them. When is someone going to come forward and offer some credible evidence? Never, because there isn't any.

What he forgot to tell you is that rng is programmed to pick up progressions.
Show me some effing evidence...?

And accusing me of being a casino agent is a grave insult and another statement I find utterly stupid. I'll know to avoid you from now on. Moron.

All I can say is this. I win on a real wheel on a regular basis. I can win on an RNG that isn't connected to a casino. I cannot EVER win on an RNG at an online casino. You figure it out.

Quote from: Proofreaders2000 on September 13, 2009, 08:46:00 AM
Hello Mike.OFF.  I believe what you say about RNGs to be true (That's why there are so many RNG casinos.)  Online live wheels (from my experience) I believe to be fixed as well.  Land based are the way to go (cautiously).

lol, LIVE WHEELS ARE FIXED TOO,

You should give up roulette mate.

Quote from: Diarmaid on September 13, 2009, 04:38:49 PM
lol, LIVE WHEELS ARE FIXED TOO,

You should give up roulette mate.

Live wheels too!... We should all give up now.

;D

Well, same as Spike here. Worst results I've ever had, I had on online casino RNG's.

I don't care if they're rigged or not, I'm sticking to real wheels anyway.

I believe RNG's are fair, but online casino RNG's *MIGHT* not be used fairly. So I won't consider them until irrefutable proof of these casino's fairness is presented, which is unlikely to ever happen. ::)

Thanks for your answer Bliss, I am looking for new casinos that worth my time, because of this debating about RNGs I became paranoid too. .

Quote from: Jakkalsdraai link=topic=12174. msg77636#msg77636 date=1252867813
No.  6 you are the one telling everyone that systems do not work.  Fair enough.  In that case how can you say that people losing on rng are people who's systems do not work? Sory to say this to you but you must be a total idiot (or a online casino rep) if you for one instance believe that rng is fair.  I believe what Mike is saying.  What he forgot to tell you is that rng is programmed to pick up progressions.  Why do you think casino's can have these min/max 10c min per number and $400 max per number.  No BM casino will give you that spread. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . wonder why? If you tell me that you are beating rng consistently and clearly are profitting . . . . . . .  then you are just talking to the birds. 

I personally have won on rng.  Almost everytime.  Then up to a point then it get's impossible.  Funny.  (yes the reason might be what Mike was referring to) Funny thing is that if I had 10k and started of on 10c bets I promise you I will lose on a progression and after that the very next spin my number will come in lol. . . . . . get real.

6, let's face it mate you like to be in the middle of the spotlight.  Whatever the topic is. . . . you will be on the opposite side.

name them Jakkalsdraai, please, I stated the reason above =)

I would have sworn all RNGs were fixed until I started to play Bet Voyager.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I've seen some huge payouts by them on their RNG--one guy claims a 22,000 Euro win.  Give or take a thou....

Sam

This debate is all part of the gambler's bent psychology. RNGs differ massively from a real wheel, mainly because a human is part of the process of generating the outcome in a real environment. When the processes and the manner in which they are executed are so different, how can people ever expect them to produce the same "exploitable" characteristics? They are very different, they are hardly comparable. If anyone on this forum knew anything about stochastic processes and the science involved they would know that. If you're gonna play an RNG you have to study it and tailor the method around it like you would [should] with a real wheel. An RNG will bulldoze any mechanical system and any method designed for a real wheel. Deal with it and stop crying about "cheaters".

Land Based casinos are at a real disadvantage compared to online (except Dublinbet) because of table limits.  If you have multiple partners and a large enough bankroll you can win with a martingale.  Online, you don't have that advantage and on RNG, you don't have the physics to employ advantage play.

Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 13, 2009, 10:33:20 PM
one guy claims a 22,000 Euro win.  Give or take a thou....
Sam

It would probably have to be the take and not the give.  I'm pretty sure the max payout at betvoyager for the total of all combined winning bets is 20k on a single spin...if memory serves that is.

Quote from: m0Fo on September 13, 2009, 05:36:44 PM
Thanks for your answer Bliss, I am looking for new casinos that worth my time, because of this debating about RNGs I became paranoid too. .

name them Jakkalsdraai, please, I stated the reason above =)

If I understand correctly u are asking which Online casinos? Try African Palace and Indigo. Both have 10c min and 400 max.

To the guys that believe you are actually beating RNG......I would love to see real proof. I think of RNG this way. Let's say I am the RNG. I now ask you what number am I thinking of? You say 2. I say no 1....... Does not matter what number you say....you will be wrong.

This is not the first guy that is a software engineer that makes such claims. If I remember correctly didn't Alarian also claim to have worked for Playtech before. As I remember it he made similar claims. So who do we believe? Guys that are claiming that RNG is beatable, yet no proof has been supplied, or guys that claim they are software engineers and what can they really get out of this making such claims? I think I would stick with the latter.

Ask guys like Kimo Li, Spike, Herb, Ronjo, Lanky, Victor, Holyman, Lohnro and the list goes on and on.....ask them what they think of RNG.....I rest my case.

You all know about the challenge between Ray and Herb using RNG spins. And Ray was way up. I strongly supported ray and I pulled Herb's leg numerous times about that challenge. I tell you guys this though. Ray knows roulette. And he beat those numbers because they were numbers on paper and thus could not be altered. I bet if that same session was online against RNG, things would of been different. The software would of countered him.

Cheers
Jakk

To the guys that believe you are actually beating RNG......I would love to see real proof.>>>

I was in a new casino tonight and they have the Bally roulette machines, like a slot machine, only it plays roulette. I spoke to a Bally rep last year and he said they use the gold standard of RNG's in these machines and I can't beat the damn things. The go back and forth like a tennis match and I have maybe a 55% hit rate. Get more zeros than normal and I'm screwed. Its maddening to play them, they are nothing like a real wheel. The best way to describe it is, real random has gentle hills and valleys,; this RNG has steep hills and valleys that plunge staight down. To hell with that.

Quote from: JakkalsdraaiTo the guys that believe you are actually beating RNG......I would love to see real proof.

Nobody's ever shown real proof of beating a real wheel either. What would "real" proof mean to you? It's ironic that probably the best proof we've seen on this forum is Ray's challenge (I watched it too), which was using RNG spins, but then you say he could only win because the numbers weren't altered.  If a casino is rigged, that has nothing to do with the RNG. To fix the game all you have to do is wait until a bet has been placed and then "spin" the ball into a number or section that hasn't been bet. As I mentioned in my earlier post, if this were a systemic practice the stats wouldn't tally, and it wouldn't take long before it was discovered. Of course there are rogue casinos around - the wizard of odds has documented on his site a case of possible cheating where the odds of particular draw in a blackjack game were way beyond the expectations.

Quote from: Jakkalsdraaiguys that claim they are software engineers and what can they really get out of this making such claims?

I don't know. Maybe they have seen some dodgy stuff going on, but they can't possibly substantiate the claim that all (or nearly all) online casinos are fixed. People make all kinds of claims on the internet, you suggested that Number Six could be an "agent" for online casinos - well maybe this guy is an agent for land-based casinos? That may sound silly, but it's about as likely as the truth of your suggestion regarding Number Six. My point is, there's a tendency to ignore or minimise the evidence that conflicts with what you've chosen to believe. There are many reasons why it's not likely that the software is rigged at most (if not all) online casinos, but there is only one reason to think that it is the case - that reason being that you can't see how the spins are generated so you won't know you're being ripped off. In other words, they think they can get away with it, so they do it.  Hardly a viable business model is it? the biggest issue online casinos face is one of trust - do you really think that companies like Ladbrokes, Betfair etc are going to cheat customers and put their reputation in jeopardy? don't forget they already have the advantage and have far less running costs than a B&M casino - they aren't going to go broke or get into financial difficulties by playing absolutely fair, on the contrary. And yet we're supposed to believe that they will risk throwing it all away by cheating punters out of a few more units. Most of the bigger, reputable casinos (like 32red) make freely available all their RNG spins and payout data, Betvoyager even goes a step further with their "randomness control".  So they can't really "get away with it", even if they chose to.

Quote from: JakkalsdraaiAsk guys like Kimo Li, Spike, Herb, Ronjo, Lanky, Victor, Holyman, Lohnro and the list goes on and on.....ask them what they think of RNG.....I rest my case.

It doesn't really count as reason for believing anything. Much as a I respect the opinions of some of these people, every case should be taken on its own merits. I'm pretty sure most of those you mention haven't given any substantive evidence as to why they don't play online, only that they don't trust them.

I agree that RNGs number sequences have a different "feel" to them than real wheel sequences, but you can get to know their characteristics and exploit them, just as you can on a real wheel.

t0p_man,

Well, what can I say?  better for you if you avoid online casinos. You certainly won't win if you think it's impossible. ::)

Quote from: Spike
The best way to describe it is, real random has gentle hills and valleys,; this RNG has steep hills and valleys that plunge staight down. To hell with that.

At least someone understands there is a difference. If you constantly compare an RNG to a real wheel, then no wonder you all think they are rigged. There is barely any hope for anyone. And who says the writer of that article was a software engineer? He's more likely to be a cyber-bs-er. If I said I could manipulate time you'd probably believe me.

Well I have spoken to Ray who will tell you that RNG in B&M casinos are ok to play. He will tell you as well that online RNG is a different kettle of fish.

So 6, how much are you up against RNG?

Cheers
Jakk

I do not believe that the RNG casino's are cheating, but I do now that I lose on them. As if I play live I can usually walk away a winner. I think some of the problems with RGN is that you can play 3 times as many spins in an hour.

Spike: I have also talked to a Bally tech, I asked him if the chances for even number bets where the same as a live wheel or like a slot machine where the odds can be changed. His answer was very interesting; he said that it was programmed to simulate live wheels exactly, except it is not suppose to go past 12 in a row on one side. I tried to find out if this info was correct, so I went and played the .25 machines in Harrahs, played for 3 days /12 hours on one machine to see if I could make it go over. I made it to 12 seven times. It never went to 13.

Phishalot

except it is not suppose to go past 12 in a row on one side.>>>

Somebody was pulling your leg. The RNG in a gambling machine cannot be programmed in any way except to put out random numbers. If they even manufacture it so it can be tampered with in any way, they would be fined out of business. I've seen many times where the Bally roulette went well over 12, who ever told you that was having a joke on you.

rj

If I gave the impression someone won 22,000 Euro on a single spin, I did not mean to.  I meant to say he showed a screen shot of his Bet Voyager window with a 22,000 plus balance.  Did he photo shop it?  Your guess is as good as mine. 

The honest-to-God truth is no one can prove to anyone he/she can win.  I strongly suspect the people who really, really, really can win are the quietest people in the Universe!! 

Sam

 :beach:

I GET IT!!

hoper is sitting by the pool in Vegas being very very quiet!!

Quote from: TwoCatSam on September 14, 2009, 08:54:41 PMI strongly suspect the people who really, really, really can win are the quietest people in the Universe!!

Best quote on this board Sam!  :thumbsup:

I strongly suspect the people who really, really, really can win are the quietest people in the Universe!!>>

You mean people like Ed Thorp and Doyle Brunsun, who were so quiet about their winning ways that they wrote books about it and almost destroyed BJ and poker? Instead, it gave the casinos even more sucker players and even more money. You mean that kind of quiet?

No, the REAL winners are seldom quiet about what they do, why should they be.

Yeah, sure.

People who'll always be remembered on the gambling scene: Thorp, Doyle... and Spike, the internet forum hero.

People who'll always be remembered on the gambling scene: Thorp, Doyle...>>

Winners have huge ego's and they love to write books so everybody will know them. Somebody wrote a tell all book about backgammon in the 90's and ruined it for a lot of people.

Quote from: Number Six on September 14, 2009, 09:24:55 AM
At least someone understands there is a difference. If you constantly compare an RNG to a real wheel, then no wonder you all think they are rigged. There is barely any hope for anyone. And who says the writer of that article was a software engineer? He's more likely to be a cyber-bs-er. If I said I could manipulate time you'd probably believe me.

You can manipulate time?  OH MYYY GOOOSHHHHH.  Can you please send me back in time to five minutes before I met my wife so that I can ask the redhead for the lap dance instead of the girl with the jet black hair (my wife)?

Quote from: Spike on September 15, 2009, 04:43:36 PMWinners have huge ego's and they love to write books so everybody will know them. Somebody wrote a tell all book about backgammon in the 90's and ruined it for a lot of people.

OK, do you think you can write such a book about roulette (exposing your method)? Because if you do, you can maybe write it some day... Why not? As you probably know, you'll never kill the game... Casinos can always change their rules/limits to ruin only your edge, not the whole game.

Can you explain why you do not want to put your name next to Ed Thorp's? I'm curious, really. Thank you in advance. :good:

I'll put it this way...Every Live Wheel is different.  All RNGs are the same!!!

do you think you can write such a book about roulette>>

I'll never write a book, I can make far more playing. Books exposing ways to win do far more harm than good.

Curious, 'time' is the secret to winning in roulette. Make no mistake. I know a few members who win consistantly who use that principal.

What principal ? :)

 :) lol, principle ...... sorry I'm dyslexic ............... :lol:

Quote from: Jakkalsdraai on September 16, 2009, 03:15:08 AM
Curious, 'time' is the secret to winning in roulette. Make no mistake. I know a few members who win consistantly who use that principal.

Well, past results don't mean anything, so I guess they have a way to see future results before they happen.

 :P If that was the truth, then cluster analysis or even the way Spike plays would have no substance to it.   :nono: If that was the truth the very last number that was spun does not matter either right? So how would you do educated guessing with absolutely no past results. I mean Spike says he looks at a wheel and knows if it is playable. That you could only do if there was some kind of history. Otherwise you would have to walk blind folded to the wheel and then make your guess (educated). Problem is how do you make an educated guess if you have nothing to base it on.  :-\

Except for Spike's example above I know of other members (allbeit 1 or 2) that also use "time" to play. In Spike's example though (and please I'm not talking on his behalf) he seems to play every bet on the EC's and he basically looks at the data flow of spins basically reading what is happening. How that is done exactly I'm afraid I have not a clue either! I guess we would have to go and practice watching EC results until we see something or until we realize that the naysayers are correct.........I believe Spike's claims though.

I play a very interesting method myself. I stare at the carpet until a number starts forming like in a hazy type of spooky shape......Then I bet that.  ;D   .................. NOT!  :D

Quote from: Jakkalsdraai on September 16, 2009, 01:50:43 PM
:P If that was the truth, then cluster analysis or even the way Spike plays would have no substance to it.   :nono: If that was the truth the very last number that was spun does not matter either right? So how would you do educated guessing with absolutely no past results. I mean Spike says he looks at a wheel and knows if it is playable.

Spike says a lot of stupid shit.   And if you read selections from his posts on several of the forums that he posts on you see after a while that he constantly contradicts himself.  So, I don't believe anything that Spike says.

Quote
That you could only do if there was some kind of history. Otherwise you would have to walk blind folded to the wheel and then make your guess (educated). Problem is how do you make an educated guess if you have nothing to base it on.  :-\

That is the whole point.  You cannot make an educated guess on a random game.  The previous results only tell you what happened before, they cannot tell you what will happen next.

Quote
Except for Spike's example above I know of other members (allbeit 1 or 2) that also use "time" to play. In Spike's example though (and please I'm not talking on his behalf) he seems to play every bet on the EC's and he basically looks at the data flow of spins basically reading what is happening. How that is done exactly I'm afraid I have not a clue either! I guess we would have to go and practice watching EC results until we see something or until we realize that the naysayers are correct.........I believe Spike's claims though.

I play a very interesting method myself. I stare at the carpet until a number starts forming like in a hazy type of spooky shape......Then I bet that.  ;D   .................. NOT!  :D

Well, Spike SAYS that he plays this way in that post, but you will find other posts where he SAYS he plays a totally different way.  I think that Spike is a teenager and doesn't play with real money.  I base this opinion on having read so many contradictory posts from him on Gamblers Glen, VLS and other places.  So, I don't believe any thing Spike says.

I just always bet my wife's measurements:  36-25-35

excuse me guys, but what does this have to do with RNG's? . . .

Guys

It's been a while since I've read BEAT THE DEALER, but if memory serves me right, Thorpe was counting down a single deck, not a six-deck shoe.  At the time of his raid, the six-deck shoe had not been invented--if memory serves me right.  So we may logically say that the shoe was implemented to thwart Thorpe and others of his ilk.  I think that's a fair statement, don't you?

So.......humans being creatures who learn vicarious lessons........along comes Joe and finds a way to beat the wheel.  He remembers Thorpe and the shoe and knows darn well if he publishes, the casino will take action to nullify his method.  So he keeps quiet.

I agree with Spike when he says people like to beat their chest and yell to the world what they have done.  It would be hard not to write the book that tells the secret even Einstein claimed did not exist.  It would be hard not to top ol' Albert!  I feel Spike is fighting this same urge; the urge to tell all.  So he tells one story here and another there.  Never the true story, just stories.  Why?  Hell, he'll burst at the seams if he doesn't say something!  He's like Superman when he was a boy on the farm.  Pa Kent remarked how it just killed him that he could do all these wonderful things and he couldn't tell anyone.  Well, that's Spike! 

Sam

Quote from: Jakkalsdraai

So 6, how much are you up against RNG?

Cheers
Jakk

I only play one RNG, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. I use it mainly for data analysis, not for serious playing. I'm not sticking up for online casinos. Some of them are run by the Russian mafia, do you think they are kosher? Course they're not, they cheat. However, I just don't see a casino owned by a huge UK bookie cheating. It doesn't make good business sense. If they got caught they'd lose it all. How many letters do you think trading standards or whatever get from enraged losers saying "I've been cheated by an online casino"? Don't get me wrong, I DO remain open to the idea that they ALL cheat, especially Playtech, although I myself have never felt cheated because I don't use some douchie "follow the last decision" betting system, but until someone comes up with some credible proof we can all see I wish everyone would just shut the fk up about it. It's boring.

You cannot make an educated guess on a random game.>>>

Wanna bet?

Well No. 6, Nobody would of believed that Bill Clinton would have an affair, after all he had even more to loose......yet he did. So as far as greed and casinos go, if you are almost sure no one can pick you up.....why not cheat?

Cheers
Jakk

 ;) To add to that......it's usually the ones you suspect least that are the culprits!

It's like when someone told me the other day: "Jeez that guy looks just like a murderer.....I bet you he has offed someone....." To which I asked him: " Well what does a murderer looks like?"   :biggrin:

Cheers
Jakk

if you are almost sure no one can pick you up.....why not cheat?>>

Because cheaters always get over confident and they always get busted.

 :) True.......well we only know of the ones that get busted right?

Anyhow. In South Africa. Two household names in food, Tiger Brands and Pioneer Foods both got busted for price fixing. Tiger Brands I think were fined like over a 100 mil in fines while Pioneer Foods were still waiting to hear their fate.

Tiger Brands had price fixing on bread. Guess what......after the fine was announced, bread prices went up again....go figure.

So what I am saying is that although alot of people here believe in the honesty of people and businesses........if house hold names like those (Mega big companies) do it, why in hell would casinos not do it.  :diablo:

I'm afraid alot of us look and stare blanc into a polished exteriors with the best in PR and marketing and we very seldom get to see what goes beyond those shells and which decisions are being made behind the scenes. Tobacco companies are another prime example. So again, why would any casino and especially online casinos be any different. Believe me it does not have to be Russian Mafia to be crooked lolol. :sarcastic:

Yeah Spike, it is true what you say that they will get caught and that this is the reason why they should not do it. Unfortunately money(and alot of it) as well as the best defense teams in the business, the most polished spin teams etc. usually get these guys off very easily. No questions asked.

Cheers
Jakk

OK. Describe to me the process of how an online casino would cheat and manage to evade detection by the auditors. If possible back up the theory with facts from open sources.

 :D Unfortunately I have no such proof. All I'm trying to show you and whoever is the fact that it is not impossible to be a cheat. Auditors could easily be in their pocket as 80% of this World runs on bribes. It's not what you know....but who you know.

Cheers
Jakk

QuoteAuditors could easily be in their pocket as 80% of this World runs on bribes.

LOL  

It's really pointless trying to convince someone whose mind is made up. No amount of evidence is satisfactory and what there is can be countered by pulling rabbits out of hats as in the above. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean to say someone isn't out to get you!

If you think about the actual logistics of cheating the scenario becomes more and more absurd. I'm talking about those reputable online casinos now who have auditors and make their spins available.  If you're going to cheat, you have to take into account that there are going to be multiple players, each of whom are (likely) going to be playing different systems and methods, so there would have to be code which would calculate the results of all players bets at any time, and work out which would be the optimum number (or section) to throw up next in order to get the most profit (ie; to make the biggest player(s) lose), and get the number out in time before the player clicks the spin button. That in itself isn't impossible, but it's pretty unlikely that there would be such a clear "winner" for the casino, unless there was some whale staking far more than anyone else.  Then you would also need to make sure that this number or section didn't throw the stats out of expectation, in order to keep the auditor's happy, not to mention any punters who were keeping a record of the spins.

But then, anything's possible when you believe.  ;D

It's sort of similar to Wendel's ludicrous statement that dealers can hit any number they choose at any given time in order to nail the biggest stakes. Not only is that outrageous, and physically impossible, but the exercise itself is pointless. Yeah, you nail the biggest stake on the table, which is 5000 on whatever plein, but on the rest of the table is wagered a lot of other smaller monies. The casino still has to pay out to the winners, which makes Wendel's claim holier than sieve. Economically it would give no further advantage to the house. On each spin sometimes the casino will come out ahead, occasionally it will pay out more that it gains. The question of RNGs is, if they cheat, how do they do it? Do they manipulate outcomes by recognising your system, or do they calculate on the fly where your bets are and spit out an uncovered number? Or do they doctor their accounts and try to dupe the auditors into thinking they are paying out more than they actually are? By law the casino has to be seen to payout an acceptable region of the house egde, meaning they pay back around 97.3% of all monies wagered. That is programmed into the software. So far there isn't even a credible THEORY about cheating. Do as Bliss says, collect some RNG numbers and test them for acceptable levels of randomness. You will never find anything out of the ordinary.

 ::) That is just my opinion Bliss. Use it don't use it.

I'm not saying every casino on the internet is cheating either. I am saying that it is very possible that there are some that you might not suspect that may very well be crooked.

Why is it so incredibly impossible for a casino to cheat? How in any case does a Auditor determine if a RNG is crooked or not?

Punters keeping record of numbers.....and? What does that mean? We know random can give any sequence of numbers. How in heaven's name will you know if the rng changes accoring to your bets placed? Simple....the answer is you cannot. And there is no way you can proove it either way except if you created the damn thing.

Do yourself a favour. Play online RNG roulette. But bet virtually. Only play red and black with some kind of fixed game plan. Now, do the same but bet with real money and a progression........Let's see what happens then. What you saying is there is no difference.

Anyhow I have said what I believe. If you want to play RNG, no skin off my nose. Please go ahead. I'm not going to stop you lol.  ;D


Looks like that English dude over yonder was right about them Online casinos after all lolol :rtfm:


Cheers mate
Jakk

QuoteI am saying that it is very possible that there are some that you might not suspect that may very well be crooked.

We agree on that.  :)

QuoteWhich online casino do you work for Bliss......

Jakk, you are sooo predictable. Which B & M casino do you work for?  :biggrin:

Course they CAN cheat, they can all cheat. The question, amid the regulation of a reputable jurisdiction, is how do they get away with the crime? No one can explain anything with a theory that is credible. Saying "I practised in fun money mode, then when I played for real I got nailed", is not an explanation. It's merely a recurrent and boring observation that has no substance. Doubtless the fun mode RNG is programmed to pay out to the player's advantage in order to suck in the douche bags. Maybe that's cheating in a way, it's deception for sure. But you're not talking about real cash-money in that situation. If you use a fun mode RNG to test a system, then you're asking for trouble. If anything, it's the practise RNGs that are rigged, not the real ones.

Now, do the same but bet with real money and a progression........Let's see what happens then. >>>

I did this in the States before they banned it. I had accounts at 12 casinos and would win win win in play mode and as soon as I switched to real money, I would lose lose lose. Turbo would always laugh at me say it was my system and not the casino. Whatever, Turbo. I never won a dime online using RNG's and I do win on real wheels. What does that tell me..

Off hand, "fixing" any (previously) random outcome takes away the randomness... which is, in the long-run, asking for trouble.  And the whole thing would be even more vulnerable to internal, large-scale employee-theft.  Why wouldn't the cheaters just cheat?  (As I suspect on-liners SOMETIMES do, if only to artificially create the odd winner for advertisement purposes.)

In my day, all this used to be called "electrical engineering"; now, it's called "electrical and computer engineering", or just "computer science" (from the math-dept point-of-view).  W/o something more, and from what conspicuously little there is to "work with" there, I would say that whoever composed that "blurb" is a graduate from neither.

If anything, it's the practise RNGs that are rigged, not the real ones.--N6.

Actually, the practice RNGs are not rigged IMO--they are TRNG numbers!  Once there is real money on the table, RNG or Live Wheel (internet) the casino has to protect itself.

I would go as far to say if it wern't for casino countermeasures, almost any system would beat roulette.

Hello dear friend,

I believe it depends on the casino, as not every casino connects their practice (free) random number generator to a True Random Number Generator (due to cost attached to give hardware-based TRUE RNG for free).

If I'm not mistaken, most casinos simply use a local RNG function for fun mode (generated at the computer) and only switch to True RNG numbers when real money is involved.

Some like Betvoyager do use the same generator for both free practice and real, but they are more likely the exception.

Kind regards.
Victor

o yes it can. :dance1:

Quote from: hoper35 on September 14, 2009, 08:59:57 PM
:beach:

:beach: :girl_dance: :girl_dance:

Playtech online casinos (i mean software, not live wheel) are the worst ones.  They are rigged big time.  It is virtually impossible to win there, the software finds your weak spots, lets u win a little (depending on your strategy) -- then rip off all your bankroll.  If u are cautious u'll see that u lose slowly, but u always lose even with the winning strategies. 

And with Martingale. . . they rip you off such a tricky way. . . they let u win some.  If u are new u really think u gonna win till they take all your bankroll. . . Bastards. . . 

been there

first of all, don't try to insult anyone here.  This is a friendly board, not for insulting each other. 
We kinda are trying to help each other, not take the casino's side saying they are always nice and innocent. 


second: the problem is-- u never can get evidence of rigged software, it is not that easy.  Software coding is a commercial secret.  It is like breaking the law without breaking the law.  The law is against cheating casinos, but
the law can not deal properly with rigging software, so playtech casinos don't really cheat, they are just use rigged software, which is very hard to investigate, and to investigate the company which is releasing this software u need more than just players complains. 

just try it yourself.  Try smart tactics on real wheels or betvoyager RNG (this one is a true RNG, not rigged one) and u can win there.  Then go to playtech "RNG" and try your winning tactics there.  Not just for 5 minutes, try for a few hours or better for a  a few days.  And tell after. 

Many people tried it, many people found out, much smarter than u and me.  Just check the news, check what's going on with playtech casinos, they do not always play fair games, but they are smart enough not to get caught. 
By the way, playtech casinos don't operate in countries with too strict laws.  There are no playtech casinos in UK AFAIK.   Microgaming casinos are much more fair. 

check what's going on with playtech casinos

hxxp: nolinks. hundredpercentgambling. com/2009/05/william-hill-joyland-casino-and. htm


by the way i have no complains about playtech live roulette, they look fair


and again -- unreasonable insulting your fellows in this forum is against the rules of this forum.  But i have never heard that rules of this forum are against insulting casinos. 

and by the way i have no complains against betvoyager as well.  So if we are so paranoid losers, why we don't blame betvoyger? 

Quotefirst of all, don't try to insult anyone here.  This is a friendly board, not for insulting each other. 
We kinda are trying to help each other, not take the casino's side saying they are always nice and innocent.

Quoteand again -- unreasonable insulting your fellows in this forum is against the rules of this forum.

Very true iggiv .

The Member (No More Bets)  has now been placed into Pre Moderation.

Lanky.

Very few people will ever test an RNG enough to determine if it is fair.  What many see as an RNG "going after them" is just the normal ebb and flow of numbers doing what they do--randomly!

Good Lord!  Spike or Herb could have written the above!

Where's my Valium?

Sam

thanx Lanky!

Sam, there is nothing to test there about playtech so-called "RNG".  Just try to play it the usual way u play and win at other places.  You'll see tremendous difference.  Any winning working strategies won't work there.  Well, maybe u can find something to fight them back, I couldn't.  it was endless hopeless war, till i found out that yes, u can beat a roulette in a short run at least, but not at Playtech "RNG".  Sometimes i come back to playtech "RNG" just out of curiosity to try the same tactics which work with live wheels and Betvoyager -- and then i start losing again after a very short period of time.  10-20 spins -- and the machine already KNOWS what are u going to do, what is your next move.  If the machine wants it will give u the same street hitting 6 or 8 times in a row -- try to prove that this not usual randomness.   Then i leave them. 

it is not a secret, it is not a conspiracy, it is just that Playtech software somehow manages to avoid fair randomness control.  How and why -- I don't know.  The only thing i know --that  most Playtech casinos are based in either Carribean or other "Third World" countries.  And some really take players as idiots -- call them on the phone million times to tell them to play Beach Life or smthg like that.  Or bother them with live chat operators: "please make a deposit, we are going to help u with this".  I am too nice to send them to hell -- i know this is their job to make this idiotic calls, people working there are not guilty, they are just doing their job. 

But The Big Guys behind this. . . that's another story

If you are smart enough, it is obvious that both RNG roulette and live roulettes are rigged.
The big difference is that you can't beat the rng roulette because it is one against one. But the good news is that you can beat the live roulette by playing smart. The numbers are not random, they are chosen to make lose people who put the most money on tables. Think about it and you will be able to guess good winning bets ;)

Quote from: ghost888 on August 17, 2016, 10:06:53 PM
But the good news is that you can beat the live roulette by playing smart. The numbers are not random, they are chosen to make lose people who put the most money on tables. Think about it and you will be able to guess good winning bets ;)

Rubbish, if that was the case there would be no winners at all.

If someone bet the max bet possible on red, or if he is doing progressive bet on red and he is on losing track because being cheated, you just need to bet small on black to win :).

But since that time, I saw that some casinos can show us a different number, so this is not anymore a guarantee of winning as they can make him lose and make us lose at same time...