Hi all of you esteemed players !
Kindly ask you to help me with this info :
I saw on Laurance Scott website (advantageplayer. com) a Roulette Spins package of 8 DVD's. Does anyone have and watched them ? It is said that they could be used to learn VB - are they OK ?
This is the link :
hxxp: store. fastcommerce. com/GamblingCatalog/prod-ff808081175e96dc01176b49485a567c. html
What other products from Laurance Scott could you recommend ?
Many thanks
Lexxter
I have a friend of mine who has the DVD's. I'll ask him if I catch him and report back to you (or ask him to post).
Meanwhile I would assume that they are okay as I have heard no complaints about them.
I would worry about quality if they were VHS video tapes, but they are DVD's with clear shots of different spin conditions, they should be fine I guess.
hmm, it turned out that the quality is nothing spectacular, but Laurence Scott's explanations in the videos make it worthwhile.
QuoteMarven says (1:32 AM):
*ok so how are those DVD's?
*I think they used to be video tapes and people complained about the quality
Dave says (1:33 AM):
*well. the quality stinks
*but then again
*anything will suck when you are filming a roulette wheel.
Marven says (1:34 AM):
*true enough
Dave says (1:37 AM):
*To me the real value was having LS explain the VB by talking and touching areas of the wheel showing the crossovers. If the spins vids are just silent spins, then I wouldn't think they would be worth much value. If you think about it the spin is only hold value for one trial. Any predictions after could be biased.
*If it was just spins they want, go to the casino. Quality is amazing and price is free.
Marven says (1:39 AM):
*lol, fair enough
I haven't seen the single zero spins myself so I can't speak to the quality of them firsthand. But if you are intent on reviewing spins over and over to perfect your method, then they would hold some value. But I don't think people can complain about quality really, as that isn't what makes the spins valuable. What make them worth the money is that you can review them in the privacy of your own home over and over and over. But for me personally, I found much more value in the explanation rather than the spins. Also, I only have one high fret wheel here, so if I need to practice VB I would rather practice on a live Low profile wheel instead as they are much more common.
As for products I would recommend... If you are serious about VB then I would get his literature. I felt it was worth the money. It also comes with access to his private forum, which is packed with useful information. You should be able to learn more than enough to get you well started in the right direction with VB.
Quote from: Davey-Jones on October 22, 2009, 10:48:44 PM
But I don't think people can complain about quality really, as that isn't what makes the spins valuable.
Agreed. I think all that matters is that the numbers and ball are visible enough.
Plus seeing as they're DVD's, you should be able to load them into video software for slow-motion spin video analysis etc. (which is good practice too especially when first getting into VB).
I ordered the 8 dvd s from the same site that hosts Laurances products, the footage that I received wasnt LS but Bob Gordons spins. they are great for practice and very clear. the only gripe that I have is that my DVDs seem to jump around a bit. but no one else seems to have complained about them in the past on the forums.
The other thing is that the wheels are set at quite a tilt, which could be a little unrealistic.
Stefano (genuine winner) has pretty good footage for he demonstration of his computor, cant locate the link off hand but its free at least
hope this helps
Mike
Many thanks Marven, Davey-Jones and Shadowman.
So just to be clear, Shadowman : the 8 DVD's are not Laurance Scott's but Bob Gordon's ? Because Marven said : "Laurence Scott's explanations in the videos make it worthwhile. " So it is not his footage but only his voice explaining ? And he explains VB according to his method form the books ?
I've seen Steve Hourmuzis video on his website but there are no explanations. . . .
Are there also other DVD's with spins and explanations (except Laurance Scott's ) ?
Thank you all.
Lexxter
If it was just spins they want, go to the casino. Quality is amazing and price is free. yayap!!!!
2 of laurance old videos has been transferred to DVDs. There is a instruction video that shows laurance explain and predict on the wheel and as i recall it book a 20% edge. Then there are a training video with different tilt levels and different wheel speeds. The fastest i think 1.8 - 2.0 and the slowest some 2.6 sec. They are shot in 1989 or 1990 so i guess the quality is as good as it gets for the time. The other DVDs are from Bob Gordon and is of good quality. I don`t know if you can buy the 2 first mentioned dvds without the paper material. DVDs are great for the learning phase but once the "how to do it" phase is over you need a real wheel. Its the only way to gain real experience. You will find that real wheels are much more "alive" than dvd wheels.
Ok thanks Kelly.
I'm practicing a method that relies on head-count so I need constant practice. The more spin videos, the merrier.
A friend of mine (BerlinerBruce) confirmed that Bob Gordon's spin videos are indeed good quality, but I have no idea where I can get those.
Thank you very much, Kelly. I read a lot of your posts on 3 forums and if you allow me to ask you from time to time about some isues related to VB I would be much grateful.
The 2 Laurance DVD's with explanations (Companion and Practice videos) are for 00 rolulette and the 8 DVD's set is for single 0 roulette (which I need). This is what I asked Shadowman and Marven - if these 8 Bob Gordon DVD's contain also detailed explanations or they are simple spins. Do you know something about this ? And also, what other good videos (with explanations), if any, could you recommend to learn VB on a single 0 roulette ?
I only read about this subject a lot (especially from you, but not only) on 3 forums and also the book "Get the edge at roulette" by Christopher Pawlicki, where he touches this subject explaining briefly Laurance Scott crossovers. Are there any other good material to learn VB ?
And also, why are so many VB methods ? Laurance Scott, Jefco, Uwe, Forester's VB2 ? Are they similar (and which one would you recommend to study) ?
I am a beginner and any information would be helpful for me, not to lose time with something inaccurate. . . . This I want to avoid, so if you or anybody could provide some guidance I would be very grateful.
Many thanks and best regards
Lexxter
Laurance, Jafco and Uwe is basicly the same thing, they just get there different ways. Laurances crossovers are designed for a double zero wheel and fairly fast wheel speeds. He uses 1X and 2X cross over patterns. Uwes system is the same as Laurances but is designed for single zero and the wheel need the 4 handles on top because they are used as pointers instead of the zeros that laurance is using. The 4 handles represent 4 x 1/4 of a wheel which means that you can get the same crossovers as laurance but at a slower speed. US has generally faster wheel speeds than Europe and europe has no double zero wheels, so a student of Pierre Basieux, Uwe, developed the 4X pattern using the handles instead. The cross over detection represents finding a certain ball speed from where you know that the ball has only roughly 4 maybe 5 revoloutions to go. To eliminate the cross overs, laurance developed the acoustic method which is doing the same thing as before but without the crossovers and can be applyed to all wheel speeds and to single zero wheels. You also gets a software with the acoustic method where you can embed your data and let the software find the ultimate betting model for you. I use it a lot although i dont play the acoustic method and i have quite a few times found opportunitys that i would not have discovered if i hadnt used the software. I dont play any models below 3.5 - 4.0 standard deviations.
Jafco also find the same wheel speed but is using a vibration device for the detection. They all have in common that they detect a certain ball speed. I think also Bob Gordon is doing the same thing with his thumper. I don`t know anything about how foresters system works, since i cant dechiffre what he writes and they dont make any logical sense. I have asked around if anyone with english as first language can enlighten me, but no response. E2 was explained to me on steves board but apparently that was wrong too. One of his systems applys a specific time interval into the spin, and that works if you stick to 1 wheel speed, if you imply several wheel speeds it pretty fast becomes very messy because the rotor position doesnt match in the end and the scatter also changes with different speeds, so the actual hit number will have a larger spread compared to your placed bets.
Which way you wanna go is your choice, i cant tell you which one is the best. My experience is that most real players are not as organized as they should be. And then there is the elite players that can tell you everything about a wheel after a thorough analyse. They will know everything from scatter, tilt degree, pocket bottom material, height of the frets, rotor wobble, each diamonds own scatter average, all scratches on the rotor and turret, all wood vein pattern and locations, ball types used in the casino and their different behaviour etc etc etc
The casino can seperate the rotor and the cylinder and swap them seperately with other wheels at night time but the players will locate both in a few minutes the next day. I would say that there are maybe only 4 - 6 of those players in europe. I had the pleasure to follow and play with a elite team a couple of years ago. It didn`t make me an elite player and i werent accepted as an okay player before i managed to pass the 3 SD barrier at ~ 2100 placed bets. At that time they had very discretely and with a steady calm hit rate managed to empty the casinos for 6 digit amount in euros. I was in 5 digits below 20K but over 10. As i understand it, the team is split up today because of money arguments and who should get what kind of cut of the winnings. Their "manager" who has posted a bit on GG is not playing anymore and has trouble with his eyesight.
Trust me, its a world that when you get behind the curtains will be far more exciting than any "21" movie you have ever watched.
Wow, Kelly, some answer. . . many many thanks ! Very grateful. . .
I could not find on Scott's website the offer for software with acoustic method. . . How does it function ?
Also, do you know other good DVD's to learn from ?
Shadowman and Marven : these 8 Bob Gordon DVD's contain also detailed explanations or they are simple spins ?
Marven : you can find the 8 DVD's here :
hxxp: store. fastcommerce. com/GamblingCatalog/prod-ff808081175e96dc01176b49485a567c. html
Shadowman said these are Bob Gordon DVD's , not Scott's - is it correct ? We are talking about the same 8 DVD set ?
Thank you all,
Lexxter
Thanks for your valuable time and answer Kelly.
Great, kind gesture of yours towards Lexxter. Thumbs up! :good:
Quote from: Kelly on October 23, 2009, 04:37:52 PM
Laurance, Jafco and Uwe is basicly the same thing, they just get there different ways. Laurances crossovers are designed for a double zero wheel and fairly fast wheel speeds. He uses 1X and 2X cross over patterns. Uwes system is the same as Laurances but is designed for single zero and the wheel need the 4 handles on top because they are used as pointers instead of the zeros that laurance is using. The 4 handles represent 4 x 1/4 of a wheel which means that you can get the same crossovers as laurance but at a slower speed. US has generally faster wheel speeds than Europe and europe has no double zero wheels, so a student of Pierre Basieux, Uwe, developed the 4X pattern using the handles instead. The cross over detection represents finding a certain ball speed from where you know that the ball has only roughly 4 maybe 5 revoloutions to go. To eliminate the cross overs, laurance developed the acoustic method which is doing the same thing as before but without the crossovers and can be applyed to all wheel speeds and to single zero wheels. You also gets a software with the acoustic method where you can embed your data and let the software find the ultimate betting model for you. I use it a lot although I dont play the acoustic method and I have quite a few times found opportunitys that I would not have discovered if I hadnt used the software. I dont play any models below 3.5 - 4.0 standard deviations.
Jafco also find the same wheel speed but is using a vibration device for the detection. They all have in common that they detect a certain ball speed. I think also Bob Gordon is doing the same thing with his thumper. I don`t know anything about how foresters system works, since I cant dechiffre what he writes and they dont make any logical sense. I have asked around if anyone with english as first language can enlighten me, but no response. E2 was explained to me on steves board but apparently that was wrong too. One of his systems applys a specific time interval into the spin, and that works if you stick to 1 wheel speed, if you imply several wheel speeds it pretty fast becomes very messy because the rotor position doesn't match in the end and the scatter also changes with different speeds, so the actual hit number will have a larger spread compared to your placed bets.
Which way you wanna go is your choice, I cant tell you which one is the best. My experience is that most real players are not as organized as they should be. And then there is the elite players that can tell you everything about a wheel after a thorough analyse. They will know everything from scatter, tilt degree, pocket bottom material, height of the frets, rotor wobble, each diamonds own scatter average, all scratches on the rotor and turret, all wood vein pattern and locations, ball types used in the casino and their different behaviour etc etc etc
The casino can seperate the rotor and the cylinder and swap them seperately with other wheels at night time but the players will locate both in a few minutes the next day. I would say that there are maybe only 4 - 6 of those players in europe. I had the pleasure to follow and play with a elite team a couple of years ago. It didn`t make me an elite player and I werent accepted as an okay player before I managed to pass the 3 SD barrier at ~ 2100 placed bets. At that time they had very discretely and with a steady calm hit rate managed to empty the casinos for 6 digit amount in euros. I was in 5 digits below 20K but over 10. As I understand it, the team is split up today because of money arguments and who should get what kind of cut of the winnings. Their "manager" who has posted a bit on GG is not playing anymore and has trouble with his eyesight.
Trust me, its a world that when you get behind the curtains will be far more exciting than any "21" movie you have ever watched.
Kelly,
Nice post. Thank you.
Lexxter,
Thanks for the link, but I'm aware of that one. I just seem to have missed the part where the guys said that THOSE 8 dvd's are in fact Gordon's spins.
I'll consider a purchase.
I think this page is better since it provides a clearer idea about the available packages:
hxxp:// store.fastcommerce.com/GamblingCatalog/cat-ff808081175e96dc01176b476a824faa .html
As for the acoustic method along with the software, I believe they are available in the advanced package (not the basic one).
Lexter
the Bob Gordon spins are just that, 8 dvds with different conditions large ball tilted wheel, small ball tilted wheel, a couple of dvds are spun both clockwise and counterclockwise as in the UK. and a couple of dvds show a level wheel. all have different wheel and ball speeds. There are no instructions as to how to predict.
hope this helps, sorry for the late reply
Mike
The software could basicly easyli be an advanced excel sheet. What you do is that you type in data like:
1. Dealer
2. Wheel speed
3. Air pressure
4. Reference number
5. Outcome number
After say 30 - 80 spin you go to your car or hotel room and punch the data into the software and the interface might come out with something like this (Beginning of treacking a Cammegh Connosieur)
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fimg526.imageshack.us%2Fimg526%2F1035%2Fcammeghedgeanticlockwo1.jpg&hash=366446ca33b67510192692850ebaf49caa080694)
Or this
(https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinks%3A%2F%2Fimg526.imageshack.us%2Fimg526%2F9489%2Fcammeghedge1bs6.jpg&hash=59cab24663ed6e3c74c5d65cb5ece3832ab2d016)
You can then play around with the auto search function to look for your chosen play. Maybe you prefer to play a sector of 5 pockets but you dont wanna play it unless it stands out with more than + 4 standard deviations and is embedded in a 9 number sector with at least +3 SD. So you enter your criteria and if there is such a possibility within the data you have entered, the software will highlight where it is and how many pockets it is away from your reference spot. It will also tell you at which wheel speed you should play it, because for whatever reason, the opportunity will not exist at all wheel speeds but the software will tell you which speeds you CAN play.
Second round is to go back into the casino knowing where you will expect the opportunity and what you do now is either play with small stakes or dry track to confirm that the analysis is sound and is not just a extreme fluke.
The software also track biased numbers.
The possibilitys in the software is plenty. You can use it to analyse dealers signature, you just punch in the release number instead of the reference number and the software will do the same again, just analysing a DS. You can track strike diamonds etc. Not all possibilitys is explained in the advanced book, because they are not a part of the acoustic system, but I suggest you ask laurance he will then guide you. Tracking strike diamonds is basicly not nessecary but it is something you normally do before you decide wether you are gonna attack a specific wheel. Normally you dont wanna hit a wheel where all 8 diamonds are in play.
Many, many thanks all of you ! I will study carefully what Kelly shared here (and in other of his posts related to VB) and will revert soon. . .
Only one question, Kelly (and others, if they can share). You mentioned Dealer Signature. If I analyze, let's say, 4. 000 spins (2. 000 clockwise and 2. 000 counterclockwise) - every number has an average of 55-58 possibility to come (2. 000 divided by 37). So in these 55-58 possibilities that come the next spin after number 4 is spun (as an example) - if I find out that 35-40 of them are in the sector, let's say from 32 to 36 (European wheel) - can this be considered as Dealer Signature ? I mean, next time when I play and number 4 come clockwise, let's say, the next spin clockwise I have, theoretically, more chances to have a 32-36 number coming ? Or Dealer Signature depends also on other issues ?
Thank you
Lexxter
That analyse will be "blind" so to speak. You need more data than just the numbers. You need:
1. Dealer
2. Release number. (The number below the ball when the dealer releases the ball)
3. Wheel speed.
4. Air pressure
5. Outcome number.
And of course seperated in wheel directions. That goes for VB too, never mix clock and anticlockwise spins.
Picking 2000 numbers from wiesbaden on line is DS with blindfold. Searching for biased wheels that way is the same, pretty much blindfolded. First you find the bias, then you confirm it with a number stream. You MIGHT be lucky to have a small advantage, but the chance that they throw 2 clockwise spins after one another is far too great and it will skew all data after that. The outcome numbers arent always correct either. Using just the numbers that way is close to a normal roulettsystem as you find them all over the place. You might be able to skip the wheel speed if its too hard to track but the advantage will drop accordingly. But the way you describe dealers signature is pretty common and many people dont believe in it, for good reasons. I wish it was that easy, but its a road travelled many times and its a dead end.
Yes, you are right, dealer is the most important - I knew that but forgot. . . ???
Suppose that we could, in theory, collect 2. 000 clockwise spins from the same dealer (we follow him a lot of time. . . ) - at the same wheel ; and suppose, in theory, that wheel speed and air pressure are rather constant (more or less. . . ). Why is it so important the release number ? For VB it might be so - but for dealer signature why ? Again, if from 55-58 spins there are 35-40 within the sector 32-36 (after nr 4 is spun), can we consider this a signature of that dealer ?
Thanks.
Lex
Release point is not tracked in VB. With VB you pin point and bet the most probable number in 1 spin. In dealers signature you act in a broader and more wide frame. In VB you fish with a harpoon and with DS you fish with a net.
As for the release point i will cut and paste something i wrote earlyer.:
Real DS is based on where the dealer releases the ball and where it ends. If the dealer has a very steady operationel standard his wheel speeds only varys very little. The amount of ball revoloutions also doesnt vary much. If the wheel on top of that has a dominant drop zone, you will find that randomness to some extent has gone out of the window, because the rotor position when the ball drops will in maybe 5 out of 10 or 20 - 24 times out of 37 have a very tight relationship with the number from where the ball was released. Simply because the pocket travel rotor wise and ball wise are more or less the same, the end position will also be in the same area. Thas real DS because it is based on real physics and not the numbers.
A steady dealer might produce data like:
Wheel speed:
70% X 3.0 sec pr rev
15% X 3.05 sec pr rev
15% X 3.1 sec pr rev
Ball revs:
9% X 11 revoloutions
80% X 12 revoloutions
7% X 13 revoloutions
4% X 14 revoloutions
In 80% of the spins, where 70% of those will be spun with 3.0 sec, the ball and rotor will travel more or less the same lenght from spin to spin, so the rotor position when the ball drops is by far not random anymore and so will the outcome not be random any more. But you need to know where the rotor startet from (release number for the ball) and measure the pocket distance to the most likely outcome number. And you are correct, it might as well have been letters and not numbers. The numbers are secondary
I hope you get my drift. A steady dealer is physicly producing more or less similar travel lenghts in ball and rotor travel lenght for the entire spin which means that the rotor position in the end is not random any more and there might be an exploitable difference with basis in the monotome physics and not because of sleepers or favourits which in the end has a negative expectation. Also, i mentioned wheel speed which will help you save bets where the wheel is either faster or slower than the average you are working with. The rotor travel lenght will not be within the "steady standards" that you have observed by the dealer earlyer.
Wow, Kelly...turns out that DS is somehow different than what I thought...many thanks ! I will look into it carefully and revert...
Regarding release point and VB - this is what I read somewhere, that release point is important. If not, what is important ? Could you please summarize (shortly, because I know you have tens of posts about VB) what is important about VB ? There are so many approaches about VB...one gets confused reading too much. And frankly, you seem the most 'knowledgeable' about this subject...Thank you !
Lexxter
You are right, im wayyyy behind in my emails. Its hard to give you advice before you know how it works. There are plenty of traps and diffycult points to look out for, but if i give you a trick on how to eliminate 2 possible strike diamonds when there are 3 possible or give you sound advice on frame dragging you wouldnt know what to make of it. Laurance is the godfather of VB and you will never go wrong if you can get your hands on his stuff. Jafco and Bob Gordons methods is also an angle to get insight and knowledge. You will always be able to make money with their methods if you find suitable wheels.
In some 5 - 10 years time i will drop my own version including.
1. Hardware (i will take a Starburst and a Cammegh Connosieur apart, DVD)
2. Balls, i will show in slow motion and with different tests how different materials react on impacts, DVD
3. How to beat a tiltet wheel. DVD
4. How to beat a semi tiltet wheel. DVD
5. Frame dragging. DVD
6. How to learn the wheel layout. Text
7. How to bet without heat. DVD
8. How to get money out of the casino without detection. Text
9. The casino surveillance "to do" list on detecting advantage players and how the cameras are placed. Text + pictures
10. Money management. Text
11. The "build up" when mapping a new wheel and how to play it after the "build up" Semitiltet Starburst DVD
To be continued............
Kelly, very nice of you, many thanks for all your insights. Well, 5-10 years to wait for your ideas...somehow long time ???....
So before learning VB, would you recommend to learn very well the DS (how to spot it and play accordingly) ? It seems somehow easier...Is it somehow profitable if one knows well to apply this ?
Also, about the 'heat' you may attract : is DS less 'dangerous' from this point of view than VB ? And also, from your experience, if one goes to a land-based casino with a bankroll of, let's say, 500 units and leaves with 1.000, once per week (so he doubles it every time) - is this drawing attention and he could have problems in future ? Which is the maximum you could win in addition to your bankroll without drawing attention (in average) ?
Many thanks and best regards !
Lexxter
Wow Kelly, this is going to be hot. Worth the 5-10 years wait.
Save me a copy of everything you will be making.