Hi to everyone, been following this section and the darkside one plus another forum for a couple of days, and I mean a couple FULL days.
I've decided to post here because I think this community is slightly better but I'll see as time goes on :D
right now I am training on a casino online that shows the wheel pretty well, just misses about 1/5 on top and bottom of the track, but the wheel is completely clear, after the dealer spins the camera switches to top view, and is easy to come up with confidence of what ball rev is after camera switch.
also, they do cw spin and ccw spin one after another, so if one would concentrate on one of them only actually has pretty long time to write down numbers and do calcs.
also I've booked a room in a casino for 20 days next month, so I'll be able to test that live in a few days.
NOW regarding Strategies from approach to cashing the winnings I need some info and advices, because the thing I would do r/n are:
1. See if the wheel is tilted by marking which diamond gets hitted the most (on cw and ccw spins one at a time).
by doing that I found that the online casino is tilted, on 23 cw (rotor) spins (so the ball is ccw) I get 11 hits on a vertical diamond
and in ccw rotor I get 12 on the vertical diamond that is 90 degree from that one (the cw and ccw are separated just by one spinner diamond.
does that suffice to say that said wheel is tilted?
2. measuring scatter by watching the average pocket jumps from balldrop. . .
and here I need some clarifications: that means average jumps from a vertical diamond? a spinner one? because when VD is hit the pocket jumps average at around 10-9 but when spinner gets hit, one out of 3 shots the ball gets stuck just above numbers and does a revolution or 1 1/2 rev before going down. . . I suppose that doesn't need to be counted, and I think that's why the wheel needs to be tilted in first place, because we need to be sure that it's the VD that gets hit.
3. now for the strategy. . .
I've read a few ones here and there, I am going to talk about basics and then about 2 specific strategies, that have been uncovered by notably expert members ( kelly on this board, and forester)
Basics:
basics are building a consistent system that by following some conditions, gives a particular focused outcome.
by that I think at the standard VB: conditions are first number, 4th/5th rev number, outcome.
this is by focusing on the ball revolutions, assuming rotor speed is the same.
e. g:
first number 0, second number 0, outcome 6
and also first number 9 second number 9 outcome 0
(as long as angle is pretty same (90°) so that applies to any number on the rotor)
I've found the image that Kelly posted (the one with Su and Sg and the triangles pattern), and printed a lot of these sheets in order to do some tests
I've to ask a few questions about this method:
I think that in this method is obvious the fact that the wheel has a dominant drop zone and a Dominant Diamond, because otherwise the outcome wouldn't be so consistent over time, as ball could drop almost everywhere on the last rev and the outcome would be pretty messed up = no equal triangle, or very few similar in a lot of spins.
and that brings me to next question:
In the outcome number is counted an error, wouldn't be much more precise to note down the ball drop number when it decelerates to the wheel insted of the outcome?
in that situation, the triangles (as long as rotor speed is constant, and the pocket is spotted correctly) would be much more similar one to each other, as the error is taken away from spin physics. then is simply adding the scatter and we have the pocket to bet.
last question:
if spins are:
rotor is faster than 4sec per rev
(consider outcome as normal or as ball drop pocket, doesn't change)
spin1: 0/21/30 (rotor does 3. 6 sec per rev ball is constant rev)
spin2: 0/21/30 (same conditions, building consistency and confidence)
now hypotize ball is slower:
spin3: 0/27
How do we manage that? Do we need to mark outcome and see how many pocket change we get, and relate that to the next slow spins?
(like in this example are 6 pockets between 21 and 27, if we get 15 in the oucome, that are 13 pocket difference from the original 30, then we get a 13 pocket diff in outcome for every 6 pocket diff in reference number. . . do the maths and then add/subtract accordingly to the outcome?)
In myrulet forum I got an explanatory post from Forester about ball and rotor speeds variations, but he assumes that ball speed is slower/faster because you have missed the first 2 spins when counting, so the starting speed was the same, he then advises to geometrically project the pocket difference of the reading from the correct reference number to the other side of the wheel:
spin1: 0/0/5
spin2: 0/0/5 (consistent)
spin3: 0/21 (he then tells to geometrically project that to the other side, so this reading would have been 0/28)
I presume that the outcome would be different, but noting that we have another possibly repeating pattern, but with the correct reference this time.
And what if the pocket difference is given by a faster rotor?
He tells that because of this could happen, the corrections are different, because talking about rotor is talking about pockets/seconds, and thus you need to know running time and add/subtract the pockets for every second remaining.
He then notes that the best for himself when using standard VB would be to focus on rotor speed, and also Kelly tells that ALOT of times, to understand rotor timing by heart, that way we can eliminate one side of the error.
Simplified would mean:
from the very start focus on the rotor speed, you need to lock one of the two variables, or at least know when the game is playable and when it's not.
Forrester's VB2 tecnique instead takes into account parameters from the wheel, that can be stored before play, as long as tilted wheel data, and scatter also.
he tells that you need to modify your start based on the outcome number, and I ask himself the same thing as before, wouldn't it be more accurate to note the ball drop zone instead?
edit:
now that i have tried more the technique, i've found that it's not the start related with the dropzone or DD hit, but it's the position on the wheel in which you finally detect your predicted number, which should be the same for at least 2 revolutions.
that position should be related to dropzone, and i think will be possible to filter out bad positions, like spins in which the DD isn't hit. . . am i correct?
sorry for the long post,
admin can edit the vb2 part if Forester thinks it tells something that belongs to his subscription forums.
Void out :D
and i have another question:
if VB methods are so good, why even experienced VB people still try to find sd of particular # in roulette tables, wasting time from good old play?
i can understand that finding that type of tables might be so $$$ because less stress is needed, but that outcome numbers might have been the results of chance, and by chance the same number can come up even 5-6 times in a row. . .
your bankroll might be pretty beaten up by that.
93 views no reply, i thought would be good to edit the post until Forester comes up and tells me something. . .
Welcome to the forum, Personal Void. I'm trying to learn all the details of VB myself. Try asking the three VB masters onboard Steve GW, Lucky Strike, and Kelly.
Thanks Proofreaders2000 but i am not an expert, Kelly is and maybe he should ask Davey_Jones or Marven.
Cheers LS
i am here to learn, and waiting for answers! :D
void out
1. It is more accurate to say "dominant diamond" because often the effect is not necessarily tilt. You should focus on a wheel with a single dominant diamond - that is hit significantly more than others. There are cases where you can have dominant diamonds (plural), and that specific configuration of diamond hits will overall give you poor peaks / scatter charts. That's why look for single strong diamonds, or DDs on one half of the wheel (this is where actual "tilt" is likely). For me to tell you what is the likely cause of the DD I would need to see entire diamond hit chart showing all diamond hits. Dont assume that some dominant diamonds automatically means the wheel is ok. Also is is not uncommon to get different DDs for different directions.
2. Many ways to evaluate scatter. With experience you will see a few spins and know if it is ok. But you can compare distance between ball-rotor strike point, or distance between number under diamond when diamond hit and the winning number. There are a lot of things that give you edge, and a lot of things that can undo the edge so it is better to look at difference from when/where rotor is hit.
3. Traditionally vb is to identify a point in time when there are X revolutions remaining, with X being the same all the time. You only need to be right enough times, not every time. Of course the more accurate you are the better. There are vb methods where you make adjustments for rotor speed but they are more difficult. Most of the time you will qualify a spin with the rotor speed being reasonably consistent. Realistically you will not be able to bet on every spin, or your edge will be diluted so learn to know which spins/predictions are good and which to avoid. Besides if you bet late in spins too frequently, you make yourself more transparent to casino staff - so it is ok to skip spins. Just as long as your vb bets counteract any smaller losing bets to stay at the table.
4. You can develop a relationship between changes in angles and outcomes, but it is more difficult, and you still need to be right about what revolution you are in. Easier to simply reject spins that dont qualify.
5. If you can identify the key revolution (time X), and take into account the point on the wheel when it was determined, yes you certainly can know if the ball is less likely to hit the DD - depending on where X occurred, you can either:
a. Use the prediction
b. Skip the prediction (somewhere in the middle)
c. Adjust the prediction, then use it.
For point C, this is when the ball is likely to go past the DD, then come around for another revolution and either hit the DD, or diamond before it.
VB needs to be practical. Some things sound great in theory and they are correct, but try doing it. Find a balance between required accuracy and practicality.
thank you for the answers i'll try yo learn better also the casino mood and fairplay :D that's important. . .
online i feel that the ball is scattering VERY randomly. . . i am now trying to combine wheel and ball rev in order to select the spins i should skip by hitting wrong diamonds. . .
thanks for the answer. . .
void out
If you are playnig online use a thumper. No-one is watching.
PM sent.
that's a pretty cool game for sure. . . I've been enticed since kelly's post about teams and 21 movie. . . and also the challenge in doing it tickles my senses. . .
:D
Teamplay takes a lot of practice and i mean here, not only the actual execution of the VB tecknik. In Denmark they just showed a program called "Take down, gone in 60 minutes", where a team of roulette computer players attempted to take 20.000 in 60 minutes, and they did. The actual team play were extremely basic and just showed a way that surveillance would catch on to, just about everywhere in the world as soon as the winnings started to pile up.
Team play is about spreading not only the financial risk, but also the heat and make things look as if it was just another shift that passed and nothing happened. How you get away with that and getting the money out without surveillance know they have been had, and that the last load of money that left the establishment is actually not just staying out overnight, but should be calculated as a loss, because they will not be returned as long as the edge is with the players, is a different story. Sorry for the long sentence.
Obviously that kind of team playing is a bit out of reach and a bit risky, just VB the ballspin might actually be enough to survive a few rounds, take away some money. . .
My personal target is building a bit in order to live off my personal strategy on forex. . . i've already 4k on my account, i just need 16k more :D
don't know if when time comes and i'll be more skilled at the game, more money could be made. . . and how risky could it be. . . but i am stating that after i reach profit target, i will just play with excess money, and if i loose it all i'll stop.
i think to be a pretty firm person, not the type that keeps gambling on a number or a loosing strategy. but that's Off Topic i think :D
thanks for the answers,
void out
If good teamplay is executed correctly, a lot of the red flags that surveillance sees is simply not there. A couple of mistakes that the "take down" team made:
1. Sector betting.
2. Winnings only collected by the big player.
3. Girlfriend constantly holding the clockers right hand to cover the finger movement of the clicking on the computer. The Clicking switch was covered by his sleeve. Dont know where the actual computer was located.
A good team will be able to operate with hands moving all over the table, including the clockers hands, and no one will be staring intensely in the wheel.
you state that teamplay in casinos is only worth it if you use computers?
Oh no, the team play i have been involved with had no devices involved at all. Not even a thumper. Pure VB.
ok, so no risk of being caught, and even if they suspect, they need to take the loss and shut up.
In my experience banning does not occur easily unless you do something stupid that makes you plainly transparent. The only players of mine who have ever been banned are online players (several).
In some casinos they are well aware of AP where in others they dont even believe roulette can be beaten. Individual staff members can be very different too.
Consider joseph jagger who won heaps with bias. Did they ban him? No, they just changed the rotor. He started to lose then had to quit, but still with a big profit. My point is rather than banning you, the casino will try to figure out what you are doing, then make changes to fix the issue. Banning is something they will do as an absolute last resort. It can easily occur for blackjack assuming the casino doesn't have proper shuffle machines, but for roulette and VB / computer players they only need to waive off bets sooner, or dramatically vary rotor speed.. at least when there are suspect trouble players. Then the AP players either lose or play elsewhere. It is not as profitable for casinos if they call no more bets before ball release, because those last second chips make them a lot of money from 99.9% of players, which are more important than the 0.01% or whatever that actually win.
It is not hard for a casino to ensure people lose, IF they pay attention. But thing is there are countless wheels and casinos. You are going to find suitable conditions. For some methods, finding suitable conditions is easy. But for others you can waste a lot of time and money looking around.
Quote from: Steve GW on January 14, 2010, 07:31:45 PM
If you are playnig online use a thumper. No-one is watching.
Whats a thumper?
Just a device that gives a vibration or thump at regular time intervals, so you can use it like a covert stopwatch. It makes beating roulette easier.
Where can I get hold of a "thumper"
What is the dimensions of such a "thumper"
Obviously it would have to make use of a cellinoid and a pretty large battery right?
Size is about the same as a stack of 3 casino/poker chips but they can vary in size. Search online for a Yamaha metronome watch. Or any type of metronome that is small and vibrates.
Jakkalsdraai, I've attached the thumper to my post. Many ways to use it. Enjoy.
Thanks I have downloaded it. Will play around with it.
Cheers
Jakk
MOV00072.wmv (nolinks://nolinks.youtube.com/watch?v=StuWE2zyMQU#)