These are some ideas that I have on taking the RNG software to it's threshold, while allowing us to profit all the way down and beyond it's ability to throw "losses" at us.
By the way, for those of you who do not believe the RNG software can be beaten, this post is not for you. Please refrain from comments such as : "Don't be silly, RNG can't be beaten"
1. The safest type of bet would be one that bets on inside numbers. Although the odds against any number are 37 to 1, it is much easier to back the RNG software up against it's own threshold.
2. Betting on outside bets is easy. It's also easy for the RNG to string along ridiculously long "losses" against you to overcome your winning streaks.
3. Betting on patterns is easy too. Similar to simple outside bets, it is not too difficult for the RNG to string together impossibly long losses against you. The only exception here is if you find a moderately complex pattern, and force the RNG to repeat that pattern exactly in order for you to lose. That way, even the slightest miss in the pattern breaks the losing streak, and you profit.
4. Betting on spatial patterns is not profitable. If we're looking for a pattern on the table layout itself to exploit, we are in trouble. The obvious reason is that it is far too easy for the RNG software to simply avoid a certain area of the table, or keep hitting a certain area - whichever it needs to do to keep taking your money, and keep you losing.
5. Most roulette systems do not consider your initial stake, your accumulated stakes, or how much to adjust your bets in comparison to your accumulated bets - or your target. It seems to me that incorporating the six point divisor solves this problem. At least you would know how much you started with, how much you've lost, and how much you have to go to reach your target win. The most common approach to any of these problems is to incorporate a "stop loss" which essentially amounts to - whatever point I need to stop at before I start feeling sick to my stomach.
6. The most common type of pattern in roulette is the RB pattern. Knowing that the RNG software is coded to detect all manner of patterns for outside bets, can we use this knowledge to "set up" the RNG? In other words, can we bait the RNG into detecting our pattern? The advantage here would be to send the RNG into a defensive mode, at which point we make a "switch" in our betting that then profits from the defensive numbers that the RNG begins throwing at us?
7. I believe there is a threshold that the RNG will not go beyond. That threshold is approximately 32 consecutive non-repeating numbers. Personally, I have never seen anything beyond 25, and that was with the most crooked RNG software I could find (Riverbelle).
8. So, here is the dilemma: how can we formulate a roulette bet that "baits" the RNG software, then allows us to "switch" to inside bets; something that automatically safeguards against massive losses (ie, incorporates something like the six point divisor) long enough to withstand the absolute threshold of the RNG software? Accomplishing this would be the equivalent to making long term profits from the RNG, while avoiding the obvious drawbacks of playing roulette online.
Whether or not RNG can be beaten will always remain the thorn in our sides.
But I always refer to the following - which you may have seen before - but might enlighten those people who have not:
nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/ (nolinks://rouletteforum.cc/online-gaming/)*documented*-proof-of-cheating-rng-software/
Hey Robbie,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. Yes, I have seen this. And although I am not surprised, I do have to say that I seriously doubt that all RNG's are stalkers or cheaters.
Consider this for instance. Funding your online casino account has always been left to the services of the credit card companies themselves (who don't care what you do with your money), or perhaps to a service like eGold or something similar.
Nowadays, online casinos are increasingly being accepted by more reputable online wallets like MoneyBookers and, more recently, PayPal.
Now that not mean much to the average person. But to a gambler, having the backing of an online giant like PayPal is huge. Paypal has been very reluctant to allow funding to gambling sites in recent years. . . and rightfully so. Even PayPal knows how shady many of these gambling companies have been.
But there has been a change in internet gambling in the past 3 or 4 years. PayPal has actually found some of the gambling sites to be trustworthy, particularly the UK based ones, and allow the average gambler to use their services in connection with it.
So, if you are going to stick with the big online casinos that do accept PayPal, such as Bet365 or LadBrokes or even William Hill, I believe that you'll find that their RNG Software will be more or less fair.
Getting back to the topic at hand, what I am looking into is trying to build the ultimate "trap" for RNG, so that if it does try to go into a defensive mode, it will have no choice but to put up the very numbers that we are waiting for.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
. . . if you are going to stick with the big online casinos that do accept PayPal, such as Bet365 or LadBrokes or even William Hill, I believe that you'll find that their RNG Software will be more or less fair.
Ladbrokes William Hill Betfair and in particular Totesport here in the UK are anything but fair.
Nullified:Your paper is an important contribution to discus the software driven roulette.I play very often on internet and I agree with you. The RNG is not the malefactor but the software.I try to bring the software in confusion by betting on difference chances and different strategies and hit and run.The number of ECs in a row I found was no more than 15 playing contrary.
This idea that software is trying to figure out your bets is absurd. If an online casino wanted to cheat you they don't need to go to elaborate lengths like analysing your playing patterns. All they have to do is wait until you've placed a bet and then generate a number which isn't part of your bet.
For most reputable online casinos, I don't believe they would do this anyway. They already win so why risk their licenses with this kind of cheating?
For sure there are rogues around, just do your homework and play at the recommended ones, or better yet, play on a real wheel.
We all know that the game of Roulette gives the Casino a House Edge even without manipulation....but.....
Playtech have to supply software to the Casinos with a virtual guarantee that it will give them a good return; if the software didn't perform, Playtech would be out of business. The Casinos may lose a bit of money here and there, but on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis they need to see a profit, and that's why they turn to Playtech.
Playtech know every single bet there is and have written their software accordingly.
Now, by the nature of the fact that it is software involved, it can never be a true RNG - so this topic may throw up something, and I wish you well in your quest. But I am sure this issue has been raised many times before and will do so again in the future.
Does anyone know how the software is tested by these so-called regulatory companies? Perhaps we could send them some examples of betting to show how strange things have happened to us all in the past? Do they just run a series of spins without even betting? It would be very interesting......
Quote from: RobbieD on March 07, 2011, 08:34:02 AM
We all know that the game of Roulette gives the Casino a House Edge even without manipulation....but.....
Playtech have to supply software to the Casinos with a virtual guarantee that it will give them a good return; if the software didn't perform, Playtech would be out of business. The Casinos may lose a bit of money here and there, but on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis they need to see a profit, and that's why they turn to Playtech.
Playtech know every single bet there is and have written their software accordingly.
Now, by the nature of the fact that it is software involved, it can never be a true RNG - so this topic may throw up something, and I wish you well in your quest. But I am sure this issue has been raised many times before and will do so again in the future.
It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. First you say "Roulette gives the casino a house edge even without manipulation..." and then "Playtech have to supply software to the Casinos with a virtual guarantee that it will give them a good return"
The "good return" comes from the house edge, no manipulation is necessary. I don't know about Playtech specifically, but I know all reputable, licensed online casinos have their RNG output audited regularly to check that it's fair. If you don't trust RNGs, then don't play them, simple. There are plenty of live wheels you can play online these days.
This argument will go on and on. You can't convince a paranoid person that games aren't being manipulated, because they won't listen to reason. Why bother even trying?
Mike I do not agree.The roulette has an Expected Value .If the software is not manipulated the House edge is equal to the EV.If the output depends on the bet it is impossible to proof manipulation of the software.The output is random and not predictable.Manipulation is only to ascertain by controlling the software.Not any softwaredisigner shall permit such a search.
Perhaps you have forgotten why the finance crisis is come into existence.
Quote from: schoenpoetser on March 07, 2011, 11:17:39 AM
Mike I do not agree.The roulette has an Expected Value .If the software is not manipulated the House edge is equal to the EV.
Yes, the expected value for the casino is positive, with you so far...
QuoteIf the output depends on the bet it is impossible to proof manipulation of the software.The output is random and not predictable.Manipulation is only to ascertain by controlling the software.Not any softwaredisigner shall permit such a search.
Perhaps you have forgotten why the finance crisis is come into existence.
I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. :-\
Yes, it's impossible to prove manipulation of the software if the result depends on your bet, wouldn't that be the point?
I'm not saying that is what's happening, only that IF the casino wanted to cheat you they wouldn't need to track your bets and try to throw up "difficult" patterns.
Quote from: nullified on March 06, 2011, 05:29:14 PM
knowing that the RNG software is coded to detect all manner of patterns for outside bets, can we use this knowledge to "set up" the RNG? In other words, can we bait the RNG into detecting our pattern? The advantage here would be to send the RNG into a defensive mode, at which point we make a "switch" in our betting that then profits from the defensive numbers that the RNG begins throwing at us?
Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. The RNG doesn't "detect" anything. It just spews out random numbers according to an algorithm or a TRNG like radioactive decay.
What is it with some folks fascination with RNGs? They want to believe casinos tamper with them, that they can be beaten by finding patterns which repeat and one crazy idea piled upon crazy idea.
RNGs run everything in a casino except where a human dealer/operator is involved. That's probably 80% - 90% of all profits come from the thousands of RNGs in a casino.
A RNG is just an equation written in a programming language like:
X_{n+1} = (a X_n + b) mod m
nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation (nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation)
Basically you start with a seed number, like any large prime number 4374637467 and multiply it by a large number and add another large number to it and then take the MOD of it to map to a number space like 0 - 36.
Put that random number back in and do it again.
That's all there is to a RNG - not one more thing!
are the online casinos even using Rngs ?
nope
and is that as stupid as it sounds
nope
Quote from: zippyplayer on March 06, 2011, 10:22:48 PM
. . . if you are going to stick with the big online casinos that do accept PayPal, such as Bet365 or LadBrokes or even William Hill, I believe that you'll find that their RNG Software will be more or less fair.
Ladbrokes William Hill Betfair and in particular Totesport here in the UK are anything but fair.
Easy to say but you offer no proof at all. Just wild claims.
Why on earth must a casino cheat and if they were caught the newspapers and internet would alert us.
A casino is a license to make money - cheating would just get in the way.
Like I said, when RNGs are brought up the folks who wear tin-foil hats come out.....
go and play at said onlines for a week or 2 and you'll see whats what !
surely you have experience like many where you can lay chips on every number but 1 and thats the one that magically spins out
play 2 of the 3 dozens for 10 spins. . . you might get 1 hit if your lucky
you stand on 15 (blackjack) the dealer shows a 6. . . he hits a 10 then a 4 or 5. .
it ain't random
been said DON'T PLAY
proof maybe not experience yes
I'm in good company
Quote from: zippyplayer on March 08, 2011, 07:13:03 AM
go and play at said onlines for a week or 2 and you'll see whats what !
surely you have experience like many where you can lay chips on every number but 1 and thats the one that magically spins out
play 2 of the 3 dozens for 10 spins. . . you might get 1 hit if your lucky
you stand on 15 (blackjack) the dealer shows a 6. . . he hits a 10 then a 4 or 5. .
it ain't random
been said DON'T PLAY
proof maybe not experience yes
I'm in good company
From what I've read, there are 3 to 5 statistical tests that can be run on a LARGE group of numbers to determine if they are random or not. Beyond that looking at the output of a RNG won't tell you a thing. Random numbers can look like anything - from all Red for 50 spins to Green 0 appearing 10 times in a row - that would all be what a RNG spits out.
My suggestion to folks who believe evil forces are at work is to play live TV Roulette and forget about RNGs.
But one thing that always seems to surface when evil RNG plots are hatching is the fact the gambler is losing.
How about someone winning 25 spins in a row? Nobody ever seems to complain then, only when they lose 25 spins in a row....
Can anyone enlighten us as to what tests these so-called regulatory bodies carry out?
Quote from: RobbieD on March 08, 2011, 09:08:29 PM
Can anyone enlighten us as to what tests these so-called regulatory bodies carry out?
I can only report what I saw on a TV special about cheating at casinos.
The gambling commissions simply inspect each machine that is used in gambling looking at seals that they installed earlier when the machine was shipped to the casino. No broken seals mean no tampering.
The show did not say what was done at the manufacturing facility. A hash total of the CPU chip would easily determine if tampering has taken place - but who does this or if it even is done was not reported.
That's all I know.
nullified
what is your experience of online RNG
This topic has gone off topic. My hope was that there would be a few people interested in formulating a long term winning system to toss some ideas around based on logical premises.
It seems that everyone would rather argue about whether RNG software is legit or not.
To quote myself:
Quote4. Betting on spatial patterns is not profitable. If we're looking for a pattern on the table layout itself to exploit, we are in trouble. The obvious reason is that it is far too easy for the RNG software to simply avoid a certain area of the table, or keep hitting a certain area - whichever it needs to do to keep taking your money, and keep you losing.
This statement is not entirely true. I can see where betting on spatial patterns is necessary to fund a series of single number exploits. Sometimes you have to bet spatially for a while to "stay in the game" while you are actually pursuing bigger wins.
Although I am working on just such a bet, I will refrain from commenting on this topic in the future. If I could lock this thread I would.
Actually, I'm just using this main board as my online notepad for a system I'm working on. But seeing how quickly topics can get off topic, I'll reserve my posts for the full roulette systems board.
I would say that if someone is worried about casinos cheating with RNG's their is probably a higher likelihood of Maritans invading us.
Random numbers are exactly that - they are random and NOT uniform.
Random numbers fool you - your brain can't handle random numbers so it finds false patterns all the time - they mean nothing.
That's exactly why there is a huge marquee by every roulette table - the casino want's your brain finding patterns and making bets when NO patterns are there in reality....
mauisunset
what is your experience of online RNG
nullified
the contrary is the case
your original premiss is very interesting and thought provoking
my experience at the UK online casinos is stated
i would hope the many experts like mauisunset would point you me and i'm sure many others in the direction of a totally safe & honest online casino
then maybe this topic could move on as you'd hoped
Quote from: zippyplayer on March 09, 2011, 03:08:47 PM
mauisunset
what is your experience of online RNG
I play in several online casinos - Black Jack, Craps, and Roulette.
Nothing seems out of the ordinary.
Worry about earth being hit by an 1 mile wide meteor that's a real concern in the couple of million years.
Folks who worry about RNGs have way too much time on their hands....
Quote from: zippyplayer on March 09, 2011, 03:27:53 PM
nullified
the contrary is the case
your original premiss is very interesting and thought provoking
my experience at the UK online casinos is stated
I would hope the many experts like mauisunset would point you me and I'm sure many others in the direction of a totally safe & honest online casino
then maybe this topic could move on as you'd hoped
I play online to test out some systems/ideas that I'm currently working on.
I would NEVER, did I mention NEVER, play online for real money (I play for actual money but NOT big bucks)
I play online with play money until I feel confident to move onto the next step - real money. But I play for $1 and a small BR. There is a vast difference between playing with play money and your money, even if it's just $1 a bet. You can count on everything that can go wrong going wrong as soon as you select "Real money" - count on that.
Not that I think RNGs are rigged but because they exist outside the US and have no laws that govern them. I don't travel to Mexico for the same reasons I don't gamble for real money online - I don't want to find out the consequences of corrupt individuals/corporations/governments.
Trust but verify is a great way to view casinos.
I gamble at casinos, with hard earned money, only where anyone caught cheating will spend many years in prison. Vegas is such a place.
ok you win
RNGs and online casinos are 100%(minus the house edge)
get back on the topic for nullifed,share some of your thoughts
the only thing i can up with is short term patterns
Quote from: MauiSunset on March 09, 2011, 03:34:08 PM
Not that I think RNGs are rigged but because they exist outside the US and have no laws that govern them.
Not true. Many online casinos in Europe, Australia and other places are licensed by their respective governments. But it's an academic point since US citizens aren't allowed to gamble online.
So I assume that if the US government did a U-turn on online gambling then you WOULD consider playing online for real money?
Quote from: Mike on March 09, 2011, 04:19:46 PM
Not true. Many online casinos in Europe, Australia and other places are licensed by their respective governments. But it's an academic point since US citizens aren't allowed to gamble online.
So I assume that if the US government did a U-turn on online gambling then you WOULD consider playing online for real money?
Sure, I've not seen anything out of the ordinary in 2 years of daily play on them.
I probably spend at least 1 hour each day online 365 days a year testing my systems and the games seem to behave the same as our local gambling boats in St Louis, casinos in Vegas and Tunica that we visit once every other month.
Of course I see patterns that have me thinking "rigged" but the same thoughts go through my mind in Vegas too....
Lucky for you. I've been staring at it for hours already but nonetheless, I can't see any pattern at all. (https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinkss%3A%2F%2Fimagicon.info%2Fcat%2F10-3%2Fsmile2.png&hash=471c4bfde9a8eaaecc106f26429c893406565ad6)
RNG = Waste of your time & money, looking for patterns/testing/playing. Do some worthwhile reSEARCH on it right here up top on this forum. Start off by typing in CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE.
Also check any gaming regulators site & see why slots/poker machines, RNG roulette, RNG cards. Airball/autowheel roulette are all classified as EGMs = Electronic Gaming Machines. Not true random spun games like live dealer roulette or craps. Once they comply with the payout % then it's open season on any players BR. The most obvious way is on the slots where they trickle feed most of the wins (small fish) so human nature being what it is, the player keeps on playing going for the BIG FISH. All too often that big one JUST gets away.
I read some time ago about the audits for RNG. For statistical accuracy they examine the payout % over the longer term rather than the shorter term. This gives any peaks (casino wins) & dips (casino loses) a chance to mathematically even out. The casino software has an inbuilt audit component, this vitually guarantees consistant compliance.
I last played them in 2010 (now sworn off for life). I remember playing on Vegas Star RNG at my local casino losing $600. About 6 other players combined nearby were down about $3,500. A player came up & started quite large inside bets and won $3 grand within a few minutes. He cashed in & left (good move by him). Us 7 players continued on betting, none of us won anything, we all did our "arses" aka BRs.
I'm not certain how they do it with RNG ? Probably something similar to slots where the RNG program slowly milks your BR with a few wins thrown in along the way. Something like 2 paces forward & 3 back. RNG is successful, that's why casinos are squeezing as many of them in as possible & reducing live dealer roulette. The other profit boost for casinos is that EGMs don't need a paid dealers & pit bosses.
The software of the inter-netcasinos are simply to manipulate. The software keeps a record of your manner of playing. They can easily determine bots or systems. The result of a new turn depends on your bettings.This manipulates can be avoided by playing different strategies. If the software is manipulated on your profit then it is impossible to make profit.
There is no difference between the manipulated RNG for real or fun money. Martingale sequences are very often broken by the zero
From the beginning I do not thrust the internet software.
Schoen - Yes you are right not to trust RNG. If the game on behalf of the casino/club/venue is down on profit at any point in time then the game program just makes more players lose so that a moving average profit % margin is maintained. Legal Cheating = RNG = EGMs = Electronic Gaming Machines.
It's all documented on any Gaming Regulators Site. I've looked & seen it. Regs are pretty much international. ON line RNG must also comply with player % returns as they all get independently audited.
At my local club here in Sydney OZ they have a big big nest of RNG poker/slot/fruit machines. Our state has 10 % of the worlds poker/slot machines in all clubs & most pubs + 1 Casino (1,000 +). That's over 100,000 machines for a population of abt. 5 million & less than 1/1,000 % of the worlds population. Problem Gambling is large with many players & their families suffering badly. The taxes are a big earner for the Government. Money talks & BS walks.
They also have a mini theatre of Vegas Star HD video RNG roulette & Vegas Star RNG Blackjack.
Talking to a friendly duty manager late one quiet night at the club he said they can adjust the % return on all RNG equipment in the club over a wide range of values. He then said they are governed to have high preset % returns to the players. He went on to say that they always comply with the % payouts as the internal pgm guarantees it.
He then said that over time they usually end up with most players money anyway. Most clubs/pubs/venues are luxurious & expanding, all thanks to RNG.
My exact feelings, Ausguy.
So, now, how can we beat these machines? Can we?
carsch - Do you have slot/poker machines close by to your area where you can play them ? Do you or would you play them ? Do you think over the longer term I.E. 6 to 12 months playing them a few times a week that you would be in profit ? Do you know any/many people that are in profit aside from a rare very lucky big jackpot winner ?
I used pokies/slots here because they're the easiest to understand. However they are classified ( by the gaming authorities everywhere) as EGMs = Electronic gaming machines. So too is RNG roulette as found in casinos as video game terminals mini theatres such as Vegas Star & also ALL on line RNG roulette. Other EGMs whether on line or casino include blackjack, baccarat, Texas poker, airball/slingshot. All the modern day EGMs/RNGs have their operational earnings % origins off pokie/slot programs.
Leaving aside all their different game programs, they have 2 MAIN things in common that B & M and on line casinos/venues love. 1. They have built in preprogrammed profit %s. & 2. They don't need dealers & pit bosses so the save big on that.
The guaranteed profit % is the thing to understand. If they had true random results then the payouts could be sometimes very high ? In turn they may not get back into profit for many days ? The casino bean counters want steady daily profits, not fluctuating returns.
The only way they can get these steady returns is to MANIPULTE the results. This is supplied with all the games they buy with an inbuilt program. They are legally allowed to manipulate/CHEAT as long as the players HAVE IN TOTAL been paid the official % returns. That's what EGMs are all about.
Audits are regularly carried out but on a gaming regulators site they said that long term averages are used (statistically better) to even out any short term fluctuations.
They don't mention anything about players winning & then suddenly hit the wall to crash & burn along with their BR. (To them that would be a short term fluctuation).
So to answer your "can we beat these machines" question. It's a big NO & it's for that very reason I never play those rip off games. It's live dealer or nothing for me.
Quote from: carsch on January 09, 2014, 02:34:05 AM
My exact feelings, Ausguy.
So, now, how can we beat these machines? Can we?
carsch where do you play your rng.
I ask as i dont look to/too far on here for the answer. Like it Aus, LOL
nottophammer
My lunch break is from one TO TWO, TOO !
Like it :)
TTT
hammer - Looks :ok:. A school teacher might even put one of those gold star stickers on your forehead to reward your effort & improvement.?
Sure Ausguy..... they're probably nothing more than just EGM's and have no RNG (i'm inclined to believe this). But THEN, and maybe, Nullified is up to something. Some people believe that after a certain amount of wins, they should cash out and then come back to the machine (what do they know that i don't? or do they know something at all?) Or maybe there is a time to play these machines, and a time to not play them? Well, i've seen people win crazy money at these roullete machines and just keep on winning. Then other times, it's like no one is winning. Lol! Well, and maybe Nullified has some ideas as he created this thread....the reason why i asked if these can be beatten. :)
carsch - As with any bet game live dealer or RNG you never know the complete picture as far as making long term profits goes ? Unless you personally know the player & therefore have "inside" information.
I know a guy who was addicted to slot/poker machine play. He worked hard & earnt good money. He got paid wednesdays & was usually broke by Friday. In 9 months he'd lost around $25,000. His wife left him, his life was messy.
One night at the local pub (Metro Sydney OZ land & most pubs have these "1 arm bandits" = a slang term from way back when they had pull handles) he won a large jackpot, $3,200. On the back of that win, to his credit, he went radical, quit his job, gave up playing the "pokies", quit his rental house & reunited with his wife interstate. He made a complete break & has made no contact with friends here in Sydney for over 1 year.
I was at the pub the night he won the $3.2k (social drinking only, nil pokie playing). Bells were ringing, lights flashing, other players clapping, cheering & back slapping him.
After all the excitement the bottom line is that this guy is still down close to - $21.8k.
Some games you can see other people winning & losing. Other games like on line RNG, it's you VS the machine. There could be hundreds of other players playing that same game but all are in electronic isolation.
As you don't seem convinced no matter what is said carsch. All I can suggest is that you allocate yourself an amount of a number of BR's, say 5+, maybe 500 + (100 x 5)subject to your progression and use some play method of your choice. Get yourself a number of different accounts from different casinos or if playing autowheel (still a type of RNG) go hit & run then return at varied times and/or play different machines, minutes/hours/days later.
Long term you will either be in profit or go bust (also break even is a remote possibility) ? It matters not what other players experience, only your results count.
At least you'll find out 100% & not worry about it any more.
It's kind of difficult when we talk about long term profit. Since they always change the mechanics. (https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinkss%3A%2F%2Fimagicon.info%2Fcat%2F10-3%2F1.gif&hash=757da3c58118624145d0a6bb75248af391793bf4)
gavind - Can you expand on what you mean...."Since they always change the mechanics" ? Also why is it difficult to talk about long term profit ?
You are either winning & ahead, breaking even & going no where or losing & sinking like a boat with a hole in it.
I play on sky vegas on 1p roulette usually £5 a week, playing all sorts of sytems and lose most of the time, i lose £250 a year. Their maximum stake on an even chance is £500. If I go on the site and wager £500 on say black there are three outcomes, black, red or zero. If the outcome of the spin was anything else but random this would be cheating. I don't care how much has been won or lost on previous games at the casino the outcome is honest. Take any of your spin results from RGN and compare them with smartlive casino real wheel, smartlive are not worried about someone betting £500 on an even choice because the house edge is there, i have seen number 29 come out 4 spins in a row on smartlive and also number 4 did too. Although real wheel roulette can be beaten (Steve?) a good modern wheel and rgn give similar results. If you look for patterns, that's fine. Play the game and enjoy, win? great!. lose, so be it!
antibet - your bottom line vindicates what I'm saying about RNG = you lose most of the time playing all sorts of systems. Make it as units & 250GBP/1p =250,000 units per year.
Transpose that to live Smart Live dealer play & the inside minimum @ 1GBP (100p) & the losses climb to 250,000 GBP PA or just over 4,800pw. For us mere mortals way out of our league.
As to your randomness part on RNG they are allowed to & do CHEAT. That's the LEGAL nature of the EGM (electronic gaming machine). Compliance only requires an average correct payout % spread out over all players over a statistically longer time frame. With an accounting /audit program in place it can never fail to deliver for the casino & still comply with payout rules. How long I don't know as gaming regulator sites don't specify ?
Lets say a tally is made every 24 hours? A hell of a lot of players would have lost money VS a minority having won. This is little different the live wheels. I don't really know why they need to have RNG cheat ? The only conclusion I can see is that casinos want guaranteed regular profits. Keep in mind that slots/poker machines are the principal casino money spinners so other RNG games have been made to run similar to them, earnings wise.
As to comparing RNG results with live dealer wheels ? If some RNG spins were 10B,6B,1R,10B,6B instead of 6B,10B,1R,10B,6B you would never know. Lets say on the 1st set you lost & on the 1st 2 spins of the second lot you would have won. Unseen & unknown to the player is that the game program has intervened & switched the numbers to make you lose so that the casino wins. On any live dealer spun wheel what you see spun is what you get = true random. As to back to back winners & unusual outcomes they are noticeably more prevalent on RNG then on live dealer wheels. The randomness can be there but it's the switching or insertion of some numbers that changes the game further negative for the player.
The other rort is that many players are led to believe that RNG games are fair as in your part about random & believing the game doesn't cheat ?
Comparing 2 different RNG wheels or 1 RNG VS 1 live dealer wheel isn't going to reveal too much of value ? The big carrot with RNG roulette such as Sky Vegas is the very low minimums. 1p is 100 times less than 1GBP (inside) & x 1,000 (outside) on the Smart Live dealer wheel.
A more valid comparison Antibet would be to play your same methods/systems long term on the live wheel. The big barrier may be the required BR @ x 100 your present 1p level BR ? Alternatively it is possible with SL to play it in fun mode as all plays are via the same money bet wheel. It just depends on how much time you have. The other option is to grab the 185 recent spins daily & test those.
EGM like slots have percentage payouts say 78%, they always keep 22% of the money put in. RGN roulette on FOBT (fixed odds betting terminals) use the nature of the unfair payout system e.g 35-1 in 37 numbers which will always return a profit, they are random and if i win my £500 someone else is of course losing theirs.
Playing roulette with RGN software.
The operators cheat, sometimes cheat or let the game ride fairly
If I stick 50 quid on red, the outcome has to random otherwise it is cheating.
So I was either un/lucky or I am being scammed.
William Hill, Ladbrokes, Betfair/Fred, Virgin, Sky are all reputable businesses
Why would you want to play anywhere else?
Cheque in the post please......
Well, Ausguy......life is a b***h. LOL however you do it, for fun, or because you think you can win, whichever way, and whether gambling is ruining your life.............I say (LOL).....Life goes on. Do it whichever way. Whether it's from a false belief you've made up in your head, whichever way, it's all fine. :)
And some people are lucky, and they will probably thing it's something they're doing, be it a system they've conceptualized.
My philosophy: well, no one is wrong. We can waist our time looking for methods, systems, ways of making this or that work....and some will find something that works for them. But, again, whichever way, it's all fine. Life is nothing but a game. It can be fun sometimes, it may not be fun other times. Does it matter? From my point of view; no, it doesn't matter. Personally, I take the good with the bad (not that I want the bad). And i'm sure you are right in this you're saying about the machines. Though i'm open to ideas.
It's all good. :)
antibet - Alternatively a multitude of "someone elses'" are winning 500 & last week you lost 500, yesterday you lost 500, today you lost 500, tomorrow you will lose 500, next week you will lose 500, next month you will lose 500 ?
FOBT - What are the displayed odds on these terminals ? Are these the machines in bet shops all around the UK where the RNG number is generated from a centralised terminal & the same number is displayed simultaneously in all the bet shops ?
A payout of 35 on 37 numbers gives them a 5.4% advantage on payouts to all numbers bet. That's 5.4 % every spin, so on average every 37 spins = 200% of the gross of each spin (it's 37 spins because we can't have 18.5 spins). So say for 100 bet shops with 5 terminals = 500 players. Say the average bet outlay is 10 per spin ( I don't have a pounds symbol keyboard) then each spin has 5,000 outlayed. In 37 spins = 185,000 gross/5.4% = 9,990. Lets say that's every 30 minutes so near enough to 20 grand per hour at least 12 hours per day 7 days per week = 1.68million per week for 100 bet shops. If 1,000 shops that's 16.8 million per week, either way it's a licence to print money off the backs of all those FOBT players. If the game is true non manipulated RNG than it's little different to live dealer casinos ?
Carsch - your post just came through. Open to ideas you say. How about non roulette bets. Odds & evens sports bet results ? NBA, some cricket matches on the toss and or the score. The payout can be around 92% - 95%. I sometimes play it at IASBET. Not every bet provider has odd/even sport betting.
As to losing or winning - All I know is that it's way more fun to win than lose.
yeah thanks ausguy, the point i was making for those who think the outcome is altered by their bet selection is that you put 1 unit on an even chance there are three outcomes, win, lose and (zero) lose. the odds the extra number create are all the odds needed to be sure of a profit. So the laws of eventual even distribution will guarantee this.
Quote from: ausguy on January 14, 2014, 02:51:43 AM
As to losing or winning - All I know is that it's way more fun to win than lose.
I'm on your side. :)
Just make sure too that when you lose, you know what went wrong so you could correct it the next time around. (https://www.vlsroulette.com/proxy.php?request=nolinkss%3A%2F%2Fimagicon.info%2Fcat%2F10-3%2Fsmile2.png&hash=471c4bfde9a8eaaecc106f26429c893406565ad6)
Interesting read this but I have said this before the fact is rng can light up any un-betted number on the board just as easy as you switch your kitchen light on or off. Simple as on / off. I have played a lot of rng (years back) and I could never win anything hardly at all . I avoid rng like the plague these days and have done for a few years. I win more on live wheels , much more than I ever did on rng so draw your own conclusions. I would say for sure some rng roulette is honest on the other hand some rng 's are rigged so why take the risk , just avoid it and loose less..
It is fact than many RNG casinos cheat and game outcomes arent random. These are mostly rogue casinos, operated from the middle of nowhere
I can remember one instance about 5 years ago playing rng where by mistake I placed £50 on red when I intended to bet just 50p , the out come was good as red hit. One other thing to remember about rng is just how fast the game is , you could click away a fortune in a matter of a couple of minutes.. I have seen red hit 25 times on the trot on rng and a dozen miss 35 times.
The dozen missed 35 times was the dozen I was betting on . So that was the last time I ever played rng.