The purpose of this section is to have a repository of accepted facts about Roulette.
All are invited to post Math articles on gambling, articles against playing systems and in general, not playing unless you have the edge.
This in place to help educate fellow readers on why one shouldn't be using a system or even not playing at all unless the positive edge is obtained.
The place to elaborate on why system players are wrong is here! Backed with a solid Math background.
There is space for discussing every aspect of gambling, and of course this includes "The Dark Side"...
Cheers!
Victor
I nominate Herb as moderator!
He must state he wants the position! ;)
U must leave your soul to 'Enter' >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Hello.
I can post this section with articles on why the systems do not work. But we're not trying to make the systems work? ???
I do not understand this section!
WannaWin
Good idea Victor >:D
Will be an interesting section to follow.
I second Sam's vote for Herb as moderator ;)
WannaWin we spent a lot of time on systems and testing. But why do we do that, is it because we want to find a system that make more than it losses. In the end all systems fail. So why spent time on systems? There are thousands of systems and none show a profit in the long run. Not that I know.
Why not put time in Bias, DS or VB? There is almost no posting concerning those methods.
Hello dear friends,
The goal of this section is to educate ourselves extensively on information explaining the "why's" it is said systems don't work, in order to increase our background on statistics and math.
May this section serve to compile this knowledge, this is what the casino owners trust, we must be aware of "that side" of gambling by reading it.
And yes WannaWin, please feel free to "post the section" with as many on-topic articles as you can :)
May we all increase our statistics and math knowledge via "The Dark Side" section, and hey: They have cookies! (Accepted gambling knowledge cookies!).
Regards,
Victor
Quote from: TwoCatSam on December 29, 2008, 01:46:11 PM
I nominate Herb as moderator!
I seconded this Sam
For a professional and experience player such as herb,its good to have him manage a section and impart his invaluable knowledge to all
This section is a great idea Victor. :)
Mr. Chips,
In short, refer to every post that I've ever written you.
I'm also pretty sure that you live in another world.
-Herb. :) /.\
So, Herb.....
Will you become the moderator? Your public awaits you!
This section is not going to be "The Pit Lite" is it? ;D at me!!
Sam
I think it would be quite informative, maybe having all the known facts about roulette and other gambling games may spur an aha moment for somebody.
The challenge still remains. Which system, (if there's such a system) defies gravity for gambling games?
btw, where are the cookies?
Thank you for making this section Victor.
I'm in. ;)
P.S. Ryan, where are you? They made us a section mate! >:D
Welcome to the Dark Side! ;D
Get your brimstone while it's hot! Fresh hot brimstone!
only just found it lol, it feels nice and cozy in here lol >:D
btw
QuoteVictor,
The internet is littered with so called maths facts, as to why it is impossible to beat roulette in the long term, whatever that
is supposed to be. The so called maths facts are not factual at all, if there was an absolute proof that it's impossible to
overcome the house edge 2.7% I would have come across it during the last 20 years of designing systems and playing roulette.
It does not exist
I can appreciate your reasons for setting up this section, but you should be aware that certain individuals will criticise systems
and refer to maths to back up their argument.
Maths is concerned with absolute proofs and if such a proof existed I would have given up roulette years ago.
Regards
Mr Chips
roulette is a game of maths, thats why we use maths to back up an argurement, you cover 36 numbers and you break even on a win, but 1 number will make you lose, on a balanced wheel this will average out over a period of time that you lose 2.7% of you bankroll, same with e/c's, dozens, columns, lines etc etc. its as simple as that.
have you ever seen a winning system before? einstein was a maths guy, would you say he was wrong about saying roulette was unbeatable?
you are making a bold claim that systems can beat roulette, it is up to you to prove us wrong.
ryan08
Mr Chips has done extensive testing using the Spielbank numbers with his 4Selecta. He has posted some amazing results. I do not mean to disparage jerek, but why is he believed and Mr Chips doubted?
I personally tested the 4Selecta over a thousand or so spins. Now I realize this is not enough to declare it a winner or a loser, but I did win with it for the time I tested it.
I would not bet my money against Mr Chips.
Sam
When you say that you have tested it over a thousand spins, do you mean that you have actually placed a thousand bets?
People often claim that they have tested a system over thousands of spins, when in reality they have only placed a couple hundred bets. Just for reference understand that you can't really count spins where there wasn't a bet placed.
Even then, only a thousand spins of testing? If you're testing a system and are out to prove that it can just turn a profit, then set your eyes on a much larger test sample. While your efforts are heroic, the test size is generally out of the range of hand testing. Use a computer, and start with 100k spins as a start.
Best of Luck!
-Herb :)
QuoteEinstein was a theoretical physicist not a mathematician. Sure he studied maths at school and so did I, what does that prove?
Mr Chips
It proves that even Einstein knew that you couldn't beat the random game of roulette in the long run. :)
Actually, there is.
Well put it this way...
The single zero wheel has one too many pockets, does it not?
The payout is only 35 to 1. This means the house has a 2.7% edge over you.
This means the house payout isn't fair.
Now here's the million dollar question: What bet amount can you bet that will overcome this negative expectation and produce a positve expectation in the long run?
Let's call this bet amount "X'.
-2.7% (x) ^the long run = +.........I'm dying to know what value X is. :)
By the way, the long run is the power by which you will raise your bet. If it's 100k spins, then just drop in 100k as the exponent.
It is a widely excepted fact that the random game of roulette can't be beaten by a system. This much is stated in every encyclopedia known. The burden of proof is on you.
Seriously though, don't waste your time trying. I know you truly believe in your system. It's tough for you to grasp whether it will really work or not because you're limited to hand testing for now and you refuse to listen to people like me. It's a tall task to try and prove it works by just trying to show a profit with hand testing. Where you get the energy, I have no idea.
If you really want to take the route of results based testing, then you'll have to get your method coded by someone like KonFuSed. Hand testing will burn you out on the game. Try hooking up with one of this forums great programmers.
Best of Luck.
-Herb
I know you don't like my facts.
If it makes you feel any better, I don't like them much either. :)
Feel free to provide me with new ones.
-Herb
Mathematical proof with formulas that roulette is beatable? Guys, come on!
You get unfair odds for your bets, that is absolutely enough.
Quote from: TwoCatSam on December 30, 2008, 03:45:10 AM
ryan08
Mr Chips has done extensive testing using the Spielbank numbers with his 4Selecta. He has posted some amazing results. I do not mean to disparage jerek, but why is he believed and Mr Chips doubted?
I personally tested the 4Selecta over a thousand or so spins. Now I realize this is not enough to declare it a winner or a loser, but I did win with it for the time I tested it.
I would not bet my money against Mr Chips.
Sam
I am defintely not one of those who doubted Mr Chip's 4Selecta
roulette is only a game of skill if you are using VB, as you need to be able to calculate where the ball will land, if you are following a set of rules, you are just guessing, you will lose eventually.
PS. einstein was a theoretical physicist but i dont know of a physicist who doesnt excel at maths
-Herb
You're right. I collected 5,000 spins and tested the 4Selecta on each batch. I did not always test a full 200 spins per day; sometimes I quit at 100 or less. Since you only bet every 3rd spin at most, I could not have done a thousand. More like 333 or something. I never really counted the actual select spins where I placed a bet.
In my mind--what's left of it--I am hearing: "OK, Sam, you drove the nail and all is well, but how many times did you hit it?" Sam doesn't know; doesn't care. Sam drove the nail. The system makes money/drives nails. Who cares how many losses if you have, if, at the end of the day, you walk out a winner?
It seems that certain people on this forum are held to higher standards than others.
Sam
QuoteVB has nothing to do with the game of roulette, but everything to do with the wheel.
but if you take away the wheel then you dont have a game, you just have a table with some numbers on, so the wheel is quite an essential part
whats VB to do with then if its not roulette?
the reason why casinos dont welcome it is because people win alot of money with these methods, the reason systems are welcome is because people lose alot of money with them, if there was a winning system for roulette casinos would not welcome them either,
VB has just as much to do with roulette as a system, one wins the other doesnt, thats all there is to it
the simple fact is using something i got taught i can make 1000 a week with 1 unit stakes, i dont know any system that can make anything near that, so why would i want to play the game 'the way it was intended'?
who said anything about computers? and yes i do support cheating the casinos because it means less money for them and more money for me,
it makes no difference to me how you play the game but you are argueing black is white at the minute.
Quotes from this thread...
Regarding advantage players:
Quote
Their activities as far as the casino is concerned is dubious and the casino has every right to ask them to leave.
[highlight]I have and would point them out to the pit boss without any hesitation.[/highlight]
(My bolding/highlighting)Regarding roulette-odds:
Quote
They are not really unfair odds at all and in fact they are very good odds.
I think I just learned who's
really on the
dark side...
KFS
Mr. Chips,
You might be a Nark. Pointing out people out isn't very cool. I think you should maybe reconsider doing that in the future.
In the short term, I shall have to consult the Consortium of Wise Men to see if we should punish you for this crime.
Attention fellow Dark Side Members,
Mr. Chips has done grievous harm to our kind. Shall he forever be branded and forced to wear the name of "Nark" in our realm for his crime?
@KFS
QuoteQuotes from this thread...
Regarding advantage players:
Quote
Their activities as far as the casino is concerned is dubious and the casino has every right to ask them to leave.
I have and would point them out to the pit boss without any hesitation.
(My bolding/highlighting)
Regarding roulette-odds:
Quote
They are not really unfair odds at all and in fact they are very good odds.
I think I just learned who's really on the dark side...
KFS
Nice post mate, just what i was thinking. LOL.
@Herb
I'm rolling on the floor laughing [smiley=3D-Smil-gros/36_12_6.gif]
NARK!
Quote from: Herb on December 31, 2008, 06:46:39 AM
Mr. Chips,
You might be a Nark. Pointing out people out isn't very cool. I think you should maybe reconsider doing that in the future.
In the short term, I shall have to consult the Consortium of Wise Men to see if we should punish you for this crime.
Attention fellow Dark Side Members,
Mr. Chips has done grievous harm to our kind. Shall he forever be branded and forced to wear the name of "Nark" in our realm for his crime?
Guys,
For the sake of new year's eve today,can you all don't argue just for today?
We are welcoming the new year in a few hours time,can all of us do that with some positive energy?
SeeJerek,
Careful or you will end up in the Iron Maiden. >:D
Mr. Chips,
Do you feel that making an educated guess with your eyes and brain, as to where the ball is most likely to land, is really cheating?
Are you implying that we are cheating, unless we are playing blissfully ignorant and blowing spit bubbles?
-Herb
Quote from: Herb on December 31, 2008, 07:30:51 AM
Mr. Chips,
Do you feel that making an educated guess with your eyes and brain as to where the ball is most likely to land is really cheating?
Are you implying that we are cheating, unless we are playing blissfully ignorant and blowing spit bubbles?
-Herb
Mr Chips,
Sorry but I got to agree with herb with this.VB is not cheating,its a skill.I reckon its the same as playing systems but VB players got a whole lot advantage compare to system players like you and me.
Just my 2 cents worth
In all fairness, the casino is using everything they can to take our money. They are using sophisticated software to track out betting habits. Busy carpet that makes us want to vomit when we look down for too long, etc. They will also ban people for winning too much or too often.
All joking aside, casino's have predatory gambling practices in place. I will gladly play the part of Robin Hood and donate the winnings to my favorite charity, ME!
Mr. Chips,
I don't know, of course, but to me it seems to be a question of how to define the word "cheat" in this context. You wrote in reply #39:
Quote
Using hand held computers and other such devices is cheating and that wins big money.
Presumably you think that's perfectly ok?
First of all I don't think any one here talks about using computers in a B&M casino.
I see only YOU talking about computers.
WHY do you do that??
Or did I miss something?
No.
Now, you write "...and other such devices..." - what's that?
I can learn a lot about a certain wheel or wheel/croupier combination from the "analysing tools" I have.
And I can use that knowledge in a B&M casino to my advantage using a certain "hand-held device".
You say that it is cheating (it's not "the way the game was intended to play", anyway).
So am I cheating?
What kind of "OTHER such devices" are you referring to, that are used for "cheating"?
"other" meaning different from computers.
BTW, "the way the game was intended to be played" is to
lose money to the casino.
You claim that you win more than you lose...
That's NOT "the way the game was intended to be played".
[highlight]
Happy New Year To All Of You![/highlight]
Logging out now,
KFS
PS.
The funny thing is: This certain "hand-held device" that I can use to "cheat", is actually allowed to use in the casino!
My experience with the casino has proven otherwise. I happen to know and to believe that the casinos do play dirty.
Because your experience with them has likely been limited, you don't know what you don't know. :)
-Herb
A little nonsense, now and then, is relished by the wisest men"- Willy Wonka.
Mr. Chips,
Need I remind you, the casino prints and provides the players with both pen and paper with the roulette wheel frequently pictured on the card, so that patrons can record the numbers that have occurred.
So I ask again, Are we supposed to simply play blissfully ignorant while blowing spit bubbles? Is our mind a cheating device?
Herb
A little nonsense, now and then, is relished by the wisest men"- Willy Wonka.
Testing?
Doesn't that require pen and paper, possibly a computer? Hmm, I think that's considered cheating. Isn't it?
-Herb
A little nonsense, now and then, is relished by the wisest men"- Willy Wonka.
QuoteThis certain "hand-held device" that I can use to "cheat", is actually allowed to use in the casino!
Yes dear Kon-Fu-Sed, I have used a
calculator at the casino too! :)
Regards.
Your friend,
Victor
Mr.Chip
If I see you next time in the casino that you are using your brain when playing roulette, then I will talk with Pitboss!!! ;D
hahahaha
Hey guys, let's stop the name calling please! As gentlemen, we can debate politely :)
Remember, this is the Dark Side, not the Uncensored Pit!
Regards.
Allright guys, happy newyear! :)
Quote from: Mr Chips on December 30, 2008, 01:28:27 PM
ryan,
You missed the point ::)
Roulette consists of a wheel and the layout and if your lucky you get to sit down and play roulette.
The numbers come in and you place your bets, very simple. You don't however hover over the wheel
and perform dubious activities, which has nothing to do with the game of roulette, again very simple,
to understand.
Mr Chips
Hi lads
sorry Mr chips, but ain't this the HOLE idea of trying to beat the wheel
predicting where the ball will land
just my two cents worth cya
all the best
BerlinerBruce
PS ive tasted coookies num num NUM
;D ;D ;D ;D
I always considered the casino's were cheating their patrons by putting a 0 and double 00 on the wheel in the first place. No?
So, why can't a patron employ whatever tactics possible to even the playing field?