why I think (most) rng's are not random

[MauiSunset]

Why do a lot gamblers keep gambling after a win?...why do a lot of druglords keep selling drugs if they have millions and millions on the bank? Why do banks and insurrancecompanies steal money from hard working people? Why do most churches 'steal' money from their followers?
In every corner were money is found there is cheating....do you really think in all erea's they are cheating accept the casino's?

To me it sounds like a perfect way to cheat. Because how in heavens name can you prove the cheating? And besides that see what 'proof' I put up here and people still like to tell it's fair instead of trying the evidence even if they have no drop of evidence themself. Why?...maby that has something to do with seeing ufo's? Didn't you say something to me about seeing ufo's? But aren't you the one who believes in something without any proof at all? Trust me I don't wanna attack you or anything but my proof and the proof of many others is maby not so impressive but at least it is something. And were mostly gamblers here so I think most will agree that something beats your nothing.

Anyhow.....I ask you again...please try it for yourselff.
Rng is a piece of software.....a (online) slotmachine can be put in different levels of payout....say level 1 is paying a lot and level 5 is paying little...why not the same kind of system for rng? And if a gamming commisson checks the software maby they just see that at that moment the software is on level 1. And as soon as Elvis has left the building they put it back to level 5...who knows? Who can proof it? It's software...you can do anything with it. That's why I think it's so important to check it for yourself...and see it with your own eyes.

Again you blow things out of proportion...and make it way to black and white.
I talked about rng...not casino's m8. And there's proof enough.
The proof I gave is proof seen by my own eyes...but let's forget about eyes for a second...and start talking brains....think about things like why can you start betting with 1c at some rng? And why are most table limits for rng lower then normal roulette? In my mind purely for progressive betting and for all those people with 'systems'. Because that's where the casino's gets the most profit from....people with 'systems'. They make way less money from people who goes to casino's for a great night out and spend 100 euro. Those people only cost money after all the free drinks and food etc.

If I was a betting man...and I am...I would bet that most people who play rng are people with a 'system'.
And in my mind rng is purely programmed for people with 'systems'....that's the only reason you see 20 systems/colours/combinations/patterns on the hour every hour.....and that is why some people see a 'system' (ufo). So I do understand why people are trying to protect the randomness of rng like a mother would protect her child....but trust me all those way to obvious patterns are just like teasers at a slotmachine....things like bar bar cherry 4 times an hour. Rng is software and it reacts on your betting and bankroll...it has nothing to do with random number generating..

You keep telling no evidence.....but if I hit you hard on the head with a spoon and say 'there is no spoon'...do you believe me or the pain on your head?.....again try the evidence....if you don't believe your own eyes then please tell me what would be evidence for you?

I can't debate conspiracy theories - I've found that out over the years.

If you believe there are dark forces at work in the gaming industry I sure won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Believe what you will, me I'm assuming that there are enough controls in B&M casinos to prevent cheating by the casinos.

Online is another matter - the casinos are located in remote parts of the world and cheating could be going on and I'd have no way to determine it except to read about it in the newspapers.

Probably everyone who has had a streak of bad luck believes that evil forces are conspiring against them - I've felt that way a few times.  But until proof is offered otherwise I'm going to assume that the house advantage is more than enough to make zillions as a casino....

[harald]

Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.

How about those 'live wheels' were you see a wheel and after you bet the wheel is gone and instead you see a big blue screen with big red letters 'no more bets'....and then you see the wheel again 



After i stop playing Random Number Riggedmachines i started playing on live wheels....didn't found a clue so far that this is rigged...allthough sometimes crazy things happen i never seen on a real wheel....anyhow i do think 1 thing is kinda strange....at all casino's i play live wheel the tables with a min of 1euro are always shown complete in your screen the whole time......

.....the tables with 10c min, the tables i play, always start complete....but then the camera zooms in and you see things like this.....

after she spins you see this screen until the number comes up....

there's always a part of the wheel you don't see....and you only see the ball half a spin most of the times.

Proofs nothing ofcourse but like i said i think it's strange....why not all the same and a complete view all the time like the 1euro table?

[harald]

I can't debate conspiracy theories - I've found that out over the years.

If you believe there are dark forces at work in the gaming industry I sure won't be able to convince you otherwise.

Believe what you will, me I'm assuming that there are enough controls in B&M casinos to prevent cheating by the casinos.

Online is another matter - the casinos are located in remote parts of the world and cheating could be going on and I'd have no way to determine it except to read about it in the newspapers.

Probably everyone who has had a streak of bad luck believes that evil forces are conspiring against them - I've felt that way a few times.  But until proof is offered otherwise I'm going to assume that the house advantage is more than enough to make zillions as a casino....

Or my english is realy very bad or you just don't read.

No matter what you just don't want to see evidence and are not open for reality...people talk to you but you have your fingers in your ears and yel 'lalalalalala i can't hear you'.......there's multiple proof it's ketchup but you still believe the statue of Maria is bleeding....hey fine by me...like i said i have nothing to loose at what i say...you can only loose with what your saying.

Anyhow m8 it's easy, and childish, to point a finger at someone else for things you do yourself....so just keep doing that and proof your that kind of person....let's say end of conversation?

[MauiSunset]

Or my english is realy very bad or you just don't read.

No matter what you just don't want to see evidence and are not open for reality...people talk to you but you have your fingers in your ears and yel 'lalalalalala I can't hear you'.......there's multiple proof it's ketchup but you still believe the statue of Maria is bleeding....hey fine by me...like I said I have nothing to lose at what I say...you can only lose with what your saying.

Anyhow m8 it's easy, and childish, to point a finger at someone else for things you do yourself....so just keep doing that and proof your that kind of person....let's say end of conversation?

Well this thread is about RNGs not being random.

I agree that there are con artist programmers and scammers selling Roulette systems that don't work because they are based on a corrupted Roulette wheel casino that scammers use.  No doubt about it - I've seen these scams.

So I agree that ANY Roulette system for sale that uses "proof" of a spinning wheel and real-time bets placed are phony - they are on YouTube too.

But that doesn't mean that any American B&M casino cheats - there is no proof of this.

Online casinos might be using RNGs that are not random too - I have no way to verify them.

Online casinos that use a live Roulette wheel are probably ok, hard to cheat that way.

Now if folks are saying that RNGs are NOT random then the burden of proof is upon them to demonstrate this, not for me to prove the opposite....

[gizmotron]

Well this thread is about RNGs not being random.

Look at this: Betvoyager's Randomness Control feature.

They pre-publish the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. There is no real fast way to cheat this process.

"A cryptographic hash function is a computer program which takes a block of data (for example, a list of roulette spins) as input and produces something called a hash value, which is a meaningless string of digits and numbers which might look like this:

e3b0c44298fc1c149afbf4c8996fb92427ae41e4649b934ca495991b7852b855

It doesn't matter how long the "input" is (it could be 2 spins or 50) the length of the output hash is always the same, and, most importantly, the same input will always produce the same hash (this is the key to why hash functions are used for security purposes)."

[MauiSunset]

Look at this: Betvoyager's Randomness Control feature.

They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process.

What's better:

1) A RNG that generates 10+ numbers, gets a hash total and publishes that total and then sends the 10 spins to the programmer for him to use as he wishes

2) A RNG that generates numbers millions of times a second and when a button is pressed the RNG stops and that's the number - no hash no alerting the programmer

Personally I'll take #2

[darrynf]

@gizmo


"They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process."


this is a lie, they may do it this way but its for there protection not yours.

if they can see the 10 numbers and see a big bet being played and it will put them into bankrupt, then i think they will change that number.
dont be nieve gizmo, its not for you.

i would rather have true random where no one knows the outcome

[gizmotron]

What's better:

1) A RNG that generates 10+ numbers, gets a hash total and publishes that total and then sends the 10 spins to the programmer for him to use as he wishes

2) A RNG that generates numbers millions of times a second and when a button is pressed the RNG stops and that's the number - no hash no alerting the programmer

Personally I'll take #2

How about 1 & 2 combined. The RNG generates millions per second, takes the last ten spins, publishes the hash of them on the casino play window, counts down those ten spins as they happen then publishes ten new ones. In this way the casino is proving that it has not tampered with spin results after analyzing player's bets. It's a form of self regulation that proves that no cheating is taking place. It's still using a proper form of RNG. It's like confirming a live wheel. All you do is hash the same ten spins and compare the hash strings. This is even programmer proof.

[gizmotron]

@gizmo
"They pre-publish the the hash of the next ten spins before they occure. This is the direction that alll online casinos should take. Ther is no real fast way to cheat this process."

this is a lie, they may do it this way but its for there protection not yours.

if they can see the 10 numbers and see a big bet being played and it will put them into bankrupt, then I think they will change that number.
dont be nieve gizmo, its not for you.

I would rather have true random where no one knows the outcome

Both darrynf and MauiSunset  have successfully convinced me that they really lack real playing experience. That they both depend on their abilities to improvise and use sophistry to carry on their opinions here. There is no way for them to logically defend these positions they have taken here. They have imagined that casinos wouldn't want to have proof that they were not cheating. Even more interesting is the fact that they can't see what this really is. No need for name calling here. Their words spell it all out.

[MauiSunset]

Both You and MauiSunset  have successfully convinced me that they really lack real playing experience. That they both depend on their abilities to improvise and use sophistry to carry on their opinions here. There is no way for them to logically defend these positions they have taken here. They have imagined that casinos wouldn't want to have proof that they were not cheating. Even more interesting is the fact that they can't see what this really is. No need for name calling here. Their words spell it all out.

2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works.

There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none.  That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV.

The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers.

Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option.

Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none.  This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks.............

[gizmotron]

More sophistry... blah blah blah....

[Bayes]

@ MauiSunset & darrynf,

I think you've misunderstood how cryptographic hash functions work. The point is that the spins are generated in advance of being given to the player, and the player can confirm this because of the hash. First X spins are generated (you can choose a value for X at Betvoyager, anything up to 60 spins). Then, the hash is generated. You can see what this hash is before you get the spins. After the spins have been shown to the player, one at a time (even though they have already all been generated in advance), the player is able to calculate the hash independently. If there is a difference in hashes, it means one or more of the spins has been changed "en route", as it were.
If there is no difference in hashes, this gives a 100% guarantee that the outcomes were not changed during betting.

But, as far as I'm aware, no online casino other than Betvoyager has this feature.

[gizmotron]

"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."

Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.

"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none.  That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."

Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.

"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."

Not anymore Bozo

"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."

Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.

"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none.  This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.

[gizmotron]

Thanks Bayes, and for this thread too.

[Bayes]

You can learn about cryptographic hash functions here:

nolinks://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function

The algorithm for generating the hash (the SHA-256) is the required secure hash algorithm for use in U.S. Federal applications, including use by other cryptographic algorithms and protocols, for the protection of sensitive unclassified information. See the National Institute of Standards and Technology for details. It's also in the public domain, so you can even write your own in the programming language of your choice.

IMO, use of this should be standard in all online casinos offering RNG games. 

[Bayes]

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