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## Bob's 00 discussion

Started by simon, May 11, 2009, 02:43:42 PM

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#### simon

we left a bit of a thread hanging in the Roulette & Gambling framework section where I posted my emails from Bob who claimed he "cracked the code" in 1993 as described in my post "the riddle, the clue, the code."  Mr. Bob mentioned "I bet only columns" and "The end chair is crucial to my method.  Without it ... I don't play." and "If you would concentrate on the 0-00 wheel layout vs. the european layout, you would have an edge on the casinos."

Number 6 you said "...Mathematically not much thought went into the distribution of the numbers around the (00) disc. I believe there are ways to engineer bets based on the analysis of the disc layout (the relationship of the numbers to each other) and also the relationship of the disc to the chronological order of the carpet."

If we are talking about the uneven amount of colors within 2 of the columns (also found in the 0 layout), my question is, even if the columns had ALL red in one column and ALL black in another column and 6 of each color in another column, and the wheel also had contiguous blocks of red and black numbers, still would there really be any way to exploit that (assuming a fair wheel)??

And how else could one possibly, theoretically, find an advantaged bet based on the relationship of the numbers on the layout and the numbers on the (00) wheel?

#### Number Six

No idea. But this is something I'm going to be researching more than anything else for the rest of this year because I believe the 00 wheel can be cracked and it will yield a consistent winning situational method...the "advantage bet". What I wonder is: why are the layouts of 0 and 00 different? Why is the 00 disc arranged in such a slapdash fashion? This investigation definitely begins in the history of roulette...

...remember that Bob had his method coded by a programmer, so it is a mechanical bet of sorts and it must be prompted by some sort of trigger, may not necessarily be totally related to the uneven colours in the columns...in fact, I'm pretty sure it will be more complicated than that. Bob needs the end chair and bets columns. He needs the chair...maybe there's nothing more to that other than he is/was too old to stand up for long periods...?

What we need to do is find everything on roulette history and start putting together the differences between 0 and 00. There are reasons why 00 is considered inferior to 0. At the moment I have no answers, but I'm going to try to find the article I mentioned in the other thread.

#### simon

great I hope you find it and if you want to know everything and more about the relationships of the numbers on the 00 wheel and "carpet" as you call it I would recommend getting Kimo Li's book "The Roulette Formula" (available at Amazon) which describes many mathematical relationships and visual patterns pertaining to the 00 wheel and betting layout, though personally was of no help to me but it may give you some good insight and ideas.

#### Number Six

Quote from: simon
Number 6 you said "...Mathematically not much thought went into the distribution of the numbers around the (00) disc.

I'll rephrase that to "no thought", unless they really liked the idea of perfect symmetry.

#### Number Six

Simon,

Like you, a lot of people I have spoken to around the forum found Kimo Li's book largely useless. If I can find a cheap used copy I may take it, but otherwise I'm sure there are far better books out there.

Anyway...
Do you know if Bob bet 2 columns or bet them on their own? If you look at the distribution of the columns on the 00 wheel, they come mostly in clumps, especially on the left-side arc. His method surely revolved around tracking wheel sectors to find his betting triggers. The 00 wheel is certainly very highly balanced, so the sequences it produces will be no where near as frenetic as the 0 wheel. What do you think about this end chair...think it has much significance?

#### winkel

An Idea for you to test:

make a (e.g. an excel-sheet) with the european wheel order
next column add the arithmetical order
next column add the american wheel order

put now in any trot. no matter where it comes from: 0-wheel-spins. 00-wheel-spins. or RNG-spins (ignore a 00-outcome at the European)

if you wanna screw it up:
add a carpetlayout and add a carpetlayout with "wheel-order"

You get different "visual views" on each layout.

Can you tell me that there is a "picture" on the one view that couldn´t appear on a another view?

You will definitely come to the conclusion, that all pictures on the one chart is transferable to any of the others.
That means: The order of numbers in a wheel or no order at all (like in RNG) don´t change the possibility of any possible row of numbers spun.

br
winkel

#### Number Six

Winkel,

You seem to be referring to this matter with a system in mind. Anything fruitful to be gained from investigating this would not lead to a system, it would lead to a non-mechanical situational strategy. The layout of the 00 wheel is inferior to the 0 wheel. Yes, on the surface the order of the numbers on both wheels is absolutely insignificant. But I've read many sources that agree the 00 wheel can be cracked, as in its flaws can be manipulated enough to gain a consistent edge over the house. The 0 wheel is perfect, in that it was put together by mathematical geniuses. Pascal tried to beat his own wheel and failed, and back then it didn't even have a zero, just a straight 36 compartments. Of course, any sequence of numbers within the parameters of the game is equally as likely to happen on the 0 wheel as the 00 wheel, but that is just a mathematical fact and has no bearing on the layout of the disc.

#### winkel

No, I had no system in mind! I just wanted to express, that there would be no difference, if either the wheel-order nor the carpet-order, would change.
Any system refering to any of these orders is bound to fail.

QuoteBut I've read many sources that agree the 00 wheel can be cracked, as in its flaws can be manipulated enough to gain a consistent edge over the house.

The only thing I heard, was that there is a sector with many Lows in it. So I could imagine, that there is a slight advantage if you add DS and VB to attack this sector. But the higher houseedge, will kill this advantage.

br
winkel

#### Number Six

There are more sectors where certain bets are clumped and so spread out disproportionately, especially the columns. The carpet layout is, I agree, largely irrelevant, or at least at this moment in time I can't see why it should be relevant beyond the column situation. I expect that the 00 wheel is a dream for DS and VB players. However, Simon's friend Bob apparently discovered a situational method that also overturns the edge, even at 5.3%. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the near-perfect symmetry displayed on the 00 wheel. You say the disc layout doesn't matter, but I'm open to the idea that it does. I think it's worth investigating anyway.

#### simon

6. unfortunately I can tell you nothing more than these two old emails say which I will paste below in their entirety (the email addresses are long since dead.)  I would send you my copy of Kimo's book for free if you want it but you probably wouldn't want to give out your address (I don't think I chucked it, I have to check.)

Subj:    Re: Roulette
Date:   98-05-17 20:31:12 EDT
From:   oldfogey@jps.net (The Old Fogey)
To:   Rougambler@aol.com (Rougambler)

At 07:22 PM 5/17/98 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Bob.  I was just wondering if you could tell me if you bet on the even
factors, the dozens, or the inside.

I bet only columns and, depending on how busy the table is, I change
casinos after an hour or so.  After watching me for a while, people keep
trying to engage me in conversation and I just leave to get away from them.

The programmer, that put my method of play through a 1-1/2 million spin
test, quit his programming job and moved permanently to Reno.  He plays 6
hours a day, 5 days a week and takes the weekend off.  I live 3 hours away
and just bought a new ocean side condo, so I gamble only 3 days a week and
we get together to swap stories.

Being a younger person, he has some wilder stories to tell than I do.  I'm
surprised he is keeping our non-disclosure agreement.  However he feels the
same as I ... Only scam artists sell an easy way to make a living that
doesn't work!.

If you would concentrate on the 0-00 wheel layout vs. the european layout,
you would have an edge on the casinos.  "Nuff Said!"

You have no idea how much time and money I've spent trying to beat Roulette.

Oh yes I do!  Been there, done that, got the hat, t-shirt and souvenir
coffee cup.  I finally "Cracked" the code in 1993.  By that time I was
allready 60 years ols and had wated most of my life following an obsession.

Type at 'Ya later ...

Bob, the old fogey ...

"Good Net Buddies Are Hard To find ..."
.......................................................................................

Subj:    Re: Roulette
Date:   98-05-18 13:29:10 EDT
From:   oldfogey@jps.net (The Old Fogey)
To:   Rougambler@aol.com (Rougambler)

At 08:39 AM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:

Which means you just like the end seat too and could be betting the dozens
as well, or there's something else about the columns I didn't mention....

The end chair is crucial to my method.  Without it ... I don't play.

I am very protective of this method.  I have seen at least one old timer
and one in his late forties on more than one occasion, observing my play
and writing in a tablet.  If the secret to my play was obvious, they would
be playing by now and not watching.  Although I don't need their free
lunch, some of the invitations, by both men and woman, and the ultimate
stories I get trying to convince me to share my method are most interesting.

If there was a way I could have had my system tested without giving away
its secret to the programmer ... I would have.  I won't even teach it too
my Lady friend who accompanies me on most of my trips.  She's 28, I'm 65
and I know her interest in me is not my good looks.

Type at 'Ya later ...

Bob, the old fogey ...

"Good Net Buddies Are Hard To find ..."

#### bombus

Hi, Simon.

This looks like a very interesting and worthwhile project; however I don't think I would be much help to you as I've never given the 00 wheel any serious thought. At a glance, the 00 wheel config does appear to be inferior to the 0 wheel but as I said, I've never studied it so I'm basically in the dark here.
I only ever play single zero at B&M casinos. No 00 or RNG for me as yet.

I will say I'm inclined to agree with Winkel here that the higher house edge of the 00 wheel is likely to pose the biggest hurdle for any system you develop.

My way of thinking is if you're going to gamble then you should always get the best price possible. In regard to B&M roulette that is obviously the single 0 wheel.

Good luck with your research, I'll keep an eye on developments and post if I find anything helpful.

Cheers.

#### simon

bombus both the 0 and 00 layouts have uneven amounts of red and black in the 2nd and 3rd columns and I was just wondering if you thought that aspect of the layouts could be exploited in any way, or to exaggerate things, even if the layouts had all red in one column and all black in another column (and half and half in the third column), and the wheel had large blocks of red and black numbers, would that still even make for any better betting opportunities?  (if obvious anomalies could be exploited, then maybe smaller ones could be too.)

#### Number Six

I think the code is rooted in the imperfect disc layout and may not have anything to do with the table. For example, the 0 disc is near flawless in the distribution of dozens and columns. Some dozen and column members appear side by side in pairs but that is about it as far as clumping is concerned. When they designed the 00 disc, it's clear that they weren't thinking much beyond scattering the pleins in a nice symmetrical fashion. The dozens are distributed adequately, but the columns appear in extensive clumps. The areas this happens are the bottom 2/3 of the right arc and the top 2/3 of the left arc. That Bob betted on columns I don't think is a coincidence. He found a way of exploiting the clumping. However, I simply cannot see how other than applying some light dealer signature or distance tracking technique. The only other way may have been to wait for certain sectors of the wheel to miss before betting them by covering the dominant columns...a far from infallible method and definitely one that cannot overturn the 5.26% disadvantage. Perhaps Bob was pulling your leg...?

#### simon

I never met him and I cannot vouch for anything he said.  My impression was that what he said in the letters was true, but they could be made up, who knows...

#### Number Six

The thing I can't understand is that he had his method coded. It's a mechanical bet.

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