Understanding it all

[birdhands]

MS, what makes you so sure?  How many times have you died? 

[MauiSunset]

MS, what makes you so sure?  How many times have you died?  

Clever question but one thing you've got to admire about "nature" - it's very efficient.  There is no need for us to continue once the lights go out - that would ask "nature" to do something that isn't needed.

If folks want to believe that magically they will live on, somehow, that's ok - whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Science has no answers right now and as we discover how our brain works we will find out that we are no more special than other animals, we just have more of a certain kind of brain cell than they do.

When the lights go out we will simply be recycled by nature - just more food for the worms.............

[birdhands]

That is certainly a reasonable perspective, although it's also quite reasonable to expect the unexpected, given that what we don't know far outweighs what we do.  Besides, I for one find a materialistic/biological explanation to be boring; I think the universe has something far more interesting in store for us.

PS You really pulled a wacky thread out of the vault here.  I had no idea it even existed.  Great stuff.

Sam

[MauiSunset]

One of the reasons gambling is so fascinating to me is that is basically a religion.

All religions are grounded in principles that can't be proven - and "special" people have inside knowledge.

What drives gambling websites is the belief that past random events can be harnessed to enrich our futures; the belief that we can find patterns in random spins of the Roulette wheel or throws of the dice.

You can't talk folks out of religion and its hard to convince them that past random events have no bearing on the future.

I just find it fascinating that when our brains can't understand something it comes up with some theory that it truly believes explains things that don't exist.  That's how our brains are hardwired and the reason most religions are very similar.

[pins]

 nobody  know how the universe was created. a second after its easy. a second before. nothing. no time no space.

[MauiSunset]

nobody  know how the universe was created. a second after its easy. a second before. nothing. no time no space.

We humans have a problem with things that have no beginning and no end - we just can't process that idea.

I just know that the universe was never created - it's always been here and will always be here - no beginning and no end.  We just don't have the math tools to deal with this so we just make up the "Big bang" - magically all the matter and energy just appeared - from where?

Our real problem is that the universe is an expanding 4th dimension and we see the affect, like every point in space is moving away from every other point but we just can't point to the 4th dimension.

Anyway our minds can't handle this stuff and so it makes up explanations the best it can.  Someday we will understand and this will all become crystal clear.  Until then the Big Bang is the only explanation our minds can cook up - as long as you don't ask "Where did all this stuff come from?".

[birdhands]

I agree but I want to add that nobody, and I mean nobody is above belief.  There is simply no way out of one belief system or another; we are all involved in faith-based activities.  It's awfully humble being human, skyscrapers and all....
Sam

[MauiSunset]

Well I just wanted to point out that much of what we think we understand is based upon beliefs since we lack the science to offer any rational explanation - this goes for gambling too.

Because we have a hard time understanding that spinning the wheel still means that every number can come up and every number has the same chance we cook up theories of "patterns in randomness" which plague this and all gambling websites.

Sadly, there are many folks who use this weakness of ours and exploit it to make a buck or two......

[Mike]

I just know that the universe was never created - it's always been here and will always be here - no beginning and no end.  We just don't have the math tools to deal with this so we just make up the "Big bang" - magically all the matter and energy just appeared - from where?

And how do you KNOW that? this is itself a belief, based on what?

The point is, the scientific methodology is the best tool we have for learning about the world. It's a valid inference that there was a big bang, based on the FACT that the universe is expanding, and lots of other evidence. You can't just dismiss the theory because you don't have all the answers as to what was there before the big bang. Science is about evidence, and making the best model which fits the available evidence. So far the big bang theory is the best we have, but it doesn't mean that better theories won't come along in the future.

[birdhands]

MS,
  I've been thinking about roulette as a religious endeavor, and I think it is in many ways.  Personally I find it to be one of the most engaging of human activities, asking unanswerable questions, screaming into the void.  This is to me one of the most dignified and courageous things we do.  As Camus said: Sisyphus was happy.

Sam

[MauiSunset]

And how do you KNOW that? this is itself a belief, based on what?

The point is, the scientific methodology is the best tool we have for learning about the world. It's a valid inference that there was a big bang, based on the FACT that the universe is expanding, and lots of other evidence. You can't just dismiss the theory because you don't have all the answers as to what was there before the big bang. Science is about evidence, and making the best model which fits the available evidence. So far the big bang theory is the best we have, but it doesn't mean that better theories won't come along in the future.

So where did all this "stuff" come from?

When you can't answer that simple question then basing theories on the Big Bang are totally worthless.

Science has to cook up "dark matter" and other gobbledygook to patch the Big Bang up.  Then the idea of dozens/hundreds of sub-atomic particles are needed to make Big Bang work.  

"Nature" just doesn't work that way - it always takes the simplest course - always.

The concept of empty space is all we have to work with - everything must come from that.  Empty space has no limits and expanding and contracting of empty space means nothing.  Empty space needs no start date or end date - there is nothing there to worry about.

Just like random numbers - there is nothing to work with.

Personally I have a theory:

"The net sum of the universe is zero".

That solves the problem of where did all the stuff come from - all the matter and anti-matter equal out so will energy and the concept of anti-energy - they will zero out.

The universe is a net sum zero game - we can't process that idea and cook up all kinds of theories that just don't ever work out as we learn more and more.

But that's just my feeble attempt to work with empty space and my fascination with random numbers and what folks see in them.

There's nothing there folks.......

[Mike]

In a sense you're right in that energy is neither created or destroyed, but only transformed. "The total energy of the universe is a constant".

However, that doesn't mean that the big bang never actually occurred, it may just mean that on the "other side" of the big bang there may have existed a universe (or something) completely different from anything we can understand now.

And I don't agree that having an incomplete or flawed theory is useless. By pushing the boundaries of what we know, we gain a greater understanding of things which may give us great benefits. Newton's theories were limited in that they didn't account for relativity, but it doesn't mean they're wrong, in fact, it's only in specialized applications that you need relativity at all. Newtons laws were enough to get man on the moon, and they're still used every day by engineers.

But predicting random numbers? it'll never happen. 

[pins]

another thing its hard to accept. roulette is a unbeatable game. we will never know how the universe came into being. we will never go to the stars. this world is full of crazy people.   and beliefs. not one iota of proof that god exists. you know what they  say. give me the child till seven .and i will give you the man. why worry.

[col1879]

***************Dying is simply flipping the on switch to off.Then nothing..............****************************

People usually make judgements based on their experiences. Up until a certain age I believed too that when you die.......... nothing. Like, as you say, a switch being flipped to 'off'.

However, I had a bizarre experience. One night, well 5:30am to be exact, so early morning, I suddenly awoke from a deep sleep. I say 'awoke', but my eyes were shut, but I was definitely conscious and knew where I was, lying in my sleeping bag on the floor in the living room (I was visiting my grandparents) and, the only way I can describe it, is a bright white light suddenly filled my head.

My eyes were shut, but I was looking at a white light. It was like being in a totally white room, nothing else. Except you couldn't say it was a room because there were no walls lol Suddenly I felt a 'presence' and realised it was my grandad. I couldn't see anything, all white, but I reached up with my arms to touch him and he stopped me. I asked him with a voice inside my head 'where are you going?' and he said 'to a better place'. I said 'do not go' but he said that he had to. I told him that I loved him and he said that he loved me too. With that, he was gone.

Suddenly I opened my eyes and sat up. I looked at the video player and it said 5:30am. I went to get up and walk through to my grandparents bedroom to check on them and see if they were okay, but something stopped me. I decided I must have just been hallucinating or something and went back to sleep.

At about 7am I woke up and could hear that my grandmother had arisen by the sound of her footsteps moving around. Thinking back, I don't know why I thought of it as being my grandmother's footsteps and not my grandfather's, but I was certain at the time. I lay in my sleeping bag and suddenly thought 'he's dead, isn't he?'

Five seconds later my grandmother came in and told me my grandfather was dead. He really was.

I do not belong to any particular faith, but I now strongly believe that after you die you go somewhere else. Where that is I do not know. I could be wrong though and if I am, who cares? You wont know any differently if it is just like a switch being flipped to 'off'

**********************"The net sum of the universe is zero".******************************

No it's not, I'm in it! I'ts zero +1. I am the only real one, you are all in my head lol

********************* By pushing the boundaries of what we know, we gain a greater understanding of things which may give us great benefits.***************

We are definitely moving forwards and not backwards. The world as it is today would be an alien environment if someone who lived in 1776 were to visit us. One day we will have human beings living on other planets. Space really is the final frontier. If it's not, well then on to the next frontier then!

[col1879]

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