Casino Security Vs. Consistent Roulette Winner

[madupz4]

If someone was consistently winning at Roulette at a REAL casino, would the casino security or the pit bosses really be that concerned? (assuming they were not cheating, just using a betting system).   What if they kept winning using some new crazy progression, or some weird new way to play the table?   

Would they be as concerned as if they spotted a potential card counter at the blackjack table?

Some say yes, but I believe No.  I agree with an article I found written by Bob Maxwell.

He writes:

"The casino managers know that there never has been a Roulette betting system that will give the player a long term edge over the house and are not concerned about anyone discovering one.  They know that all betting systems involve a small to large variety of bets of various amounts. The wheel has no memory, so it doesn't matter to the house why a player using past results decides to place a certain size bet at any particular time. Nor does it matter how much the player is ahead or behind when he or she leaves the table or any such system related behavior. From the casino point of view, if the player were to play every day for a month, regardless of the system used, it would be just one long session of about 300 hours at the table that could yield about fifteen or twenty thousand separate plays.
Taking this one step further, the fifteen thousand or so bets made by our imaginary player could all fall into categories of various bet amounts used by the system along with how many bets were made in each of the categories.

The analysis might look something like this:
2530 bets made at $5
2275 bets made at $7
2055 bets made at $15
1733 bets made at $20
(and so forth to account for all of the approx.15,000 bets made)


To use the 2055 bets made at $15 as an example, there is absolutely no reason for the casino to regard this group as anything special, just because the bets were made during the play of some sort of system. It doesn't matter if $15 was chosen as the right bet amount to make up for some previous losses, or to extend winning streaks, or anything else. It is still just a lot of $15 bets. The house will almost certainly gain a profit amount of approximately the 5.26% mathmatical advantage that it gets on this and all other American Roulette wager amounts. . . There is no reason not to.  All the other bet amount categories are always subject to the same house advantage. . No bet amount choice can ever effect a change in the house advantage regardless of the reasons for a bet amount selection.
Because this is the way it is and as long as the game stays the same, no betting system will ever work in the long term."

This article can be found at:  nolinks://nolinks.vidpoker.com/betting_systems_article.htm

What do you guys think?  If someone found a "way" to beat roulette, would the casino think they are just lucky and let them keep at it?  I seriously cannot imagine a roulette player being kicked out, when they KNOW, or they THINK the game cannot be beaten LONG TERM!

Thoughts?

[TwoCatSam]

Madupz4

So what is "Bullet Bob's" claim to fame?  That he can enunciate with fluidity the old saw that no system will work.  Anyone can say that. 

There are those who would rather be right than risk being thought a fool.  It is easy to say "no system works" and be right.  Anyone can do it.  What has this man proved? 

Consider the black swan theory.  If I look at 10,000  swans and never see a black one, does that mean there are no black swans?  No, it does not--unless I have looked at every swan in existence.  However, if I find one black swan I can never say "There are no black swans." because I have seen at least one.  I would strongly suspect there might be more.

Bob is merely saying he has looked at 10,000 systems and because he has not seen a winning one, it does not exist.  Unlike swans, roulette systems are created and Bob can never be 100% sure there will never be one created.  When he dies, someone will still be searching.

Please excuse me if I keep the faith.

Sam

[madupz4]

Madupz4

So what is "Bullet Bob's" claim to fame?  That he can enunciate with fluidity the old saw that no system will work.  Anyone can say that. 

There are those who would rather be right than risk being thought a fool.  It is easy to say "no system works" and be right.  Anyone can do it.  What has this man proved? 

Consider the black swan theory.  If I look at 10,000  swans and never see a black one, does that mean there are no black swans?  No, it does not--unless I have looked at every swan in existence.  However, if I find one black swan I can never say "There are no black swans." because I have seen at least one.  I would strongly suspect there might be more.

Bob is merely saying he has looked at 10,000 systems and because he has not seen a winning one, it does not exist.  Unlike swans, roulette systems are created and Bob can never be 100% sure there will never be one created.  When he dies, someone will still be searching.

Please excuse me if I keep the faith.

Sam

TwoCatSam,

I think you were missing the point of my question.  My question didn't have to do with if I agree with this man's opinion on whether or not there are professional players or if roulette can be beaten, but rather specifically, how would the Casino Security react to such a player who consistently won?

There is no question in my mind that I believe a person can win at roulette on a consistent basis, but I believe casino's don't believe this is the case.  I believe casino's think that it cannot be beaten, therefore my question is, what would their reaction be to a player who seems to be beating the game on a regular basis?  Do they attribute it to luck and think that eventually his losses will come, or kick them out?

I find it hard to believe they would remove a roulette player for consistently winning like they would a card counter or a cheater, especially when I believe they think that "all who play roulette will eventually fall to the house advantage"...... that is the main point of what I am saying.

[TwoCatSam]

If someone was consistently winning at Roulette at a REAL casino, would the casino security or the pit bosses really be that concerned? (assuming they were not cheating, just using a betting system).   What if they kept winning using some new crazy progression, or some weird new way to play the table?   

Would they be as concerned as if they spotted a potential card counter at the blackjack table?

Some say yes, but I believe No.  I agree with an article I found written by Bob Maxwell.

He writes:

"The casino managers know that there never has been a Roulette betting system that will give the player a long term edge over the house and are not concerned about anyone discovering one.  They know that all betting systems involve a small to large variety of bets of various amounts. The wheel has no memory, so it doesn't matter to the house why a player using past results decides to place a certain size bet at any particular time. Nor does it matter how much the player is ahead or behind when he or she leaves the table or any such system related behavior. From the casino point of view, if the player were to play every day for a month, regardless of the system used, it would be just one long session of about 300 hours at the table that could yield about fifteen or twenty thousand separate plays.
Taking this one step further, the fifteen thousand or so bets made by our imaginary player could all fall into categories of various bet amounts used by the system along with how many bets were made in each of the categories.

The analysis might look something like this:
2530 bets made at $5
2275 bets made at $7
2055 bets made at $15
1733 bets made at $20
(and so forth to account for all of the approx.15,000 bets made)


To use the 2055 bets made at $15 as an example, there is absolutely no reason for the casino to regard this group as anything special, just because the bets were made during the play of some sort of system. It doesn't matter if $15 was chosen as the right bet amount to make up for some previous losses, or to extend winning streaks, or anything else. It is still just a lot of $15 bets. The house will almost certainly gain a profit amount of approximately the 5.26% mathmatical advantage that it gets on this and all other American Roulette wager amounts. . . There is no reason not to.  All the other bet amount categories are always subject to the same house advantage. . No bet amount choice can ever effect a change in the house advantage regardless of the reasons for a bet amount selection.
Because this is the way it is and as long as the game stays the same, no betting system will ever work in the long term."

This article can be found at:  nolinks://nolinks.vidpoker.com/betting_systems_article.htm

What do you guys think?  If someone found a "way" to beat roulette, would the casino think they are just lucky and let them keep at it?  I seriously cannot imagine a roulette player being kicked out, when they KNOW, or they THINK the game cannot be beaten LONG TERM!

Thoughts?

Madupz4

I put the two red statements together and it came out that you agree with him that no betting system will ever work in the long term.  But in the event I misread the above and to answer your question--yes, I believe they would ban him just as if he were counting cards. 

I would never let a pit crew know I was making money.  My attitude would be:  Man, a few more sessions like that and I'll be even!

Sam

[VLSroulette]

If someone was consistently winning at Roulette at a REAL casino, would the casino security or the pit bosses really be that concerned?

It depends dear Madupz. Let's review the following cases:

- Large casino, any VIP room, player wins 20K, goes unnoticed.

- Medium casino, regular roulette, player wins 20K, as he starts doing it consistently pitbosses may "flag" him and watch his play closely, but they won't ban players at their first "big win". Prior to banning winners, they need to be certain it is really a form of advantage-play and not just dumb luck. Just banning winners at their first "big hit" is a bad practice as it gives the casino reputation of not allowing winners PLUS in the words of a casino owner: Winners come back next day to give back the loan, with interests... (I.e. they need to keep the door open for "lucky winners" to stick to their casino in order to having the chance to have the house edge affect them and get their money back).

- Small casino, third-world. Any of those many places who call themselves "BINGOS": full of slots, automated tables and only a couple real table games. Even if only being a sunday player, a 20K winner, can represent -80K/mo for them, as the owners of these places are usually the most greedy and do not like to close any table in the minus, as soon as ANY player is spotted to having an advantage, he will be more than likely banned, even if 20K.

I know cases of people hitting a win around that and getting banned in-situ at a few of those places. This happening at the automated tables, where 1 number can go max. only to $5, then hitting 20K (and above as it has happened) is quite a feat, and they do accuse the player of cheating, close the automated machine and call the technicians to "fix them" (they scold them even), I've seen it! This is the reality around here, you can't be a consistent winner taking that amount per night -whatever method- at those small places without being spotted. You have to head towards a real casino (at least mid-size) and forget about those "bingo" places to do that.


So what do we learn from the examples above? Each casino is a world, each casino has its own policies when dealing with consistent winners and this is closely related to the level of the stablishment.

One thing the smart consistent winner must be aware of is this: how much can I take at a certain place without being noticed?

Of course, they aren't really that concerned about the system used (progression, regression, positive up-as-you-win, etc.) as to tagging what players to consider a threat. That's the reality. So what really matters to the smart player is not getting flagged to that level. Going unnoticed is a priority for taking the casinos consistently and of course, the smart player knows till where can he do it at the places he visits.

Victor

[madupz4]

It depends dear Madupz. Let's review the following cases:

- Large casino, any VIP room, player wins 20K, goes unnoticed.

- Medium casino, regular roulette, player wins 20K, as he starts doing it consistently pitbosses may "flag" him and watch his play closely, but they won't ban players at their first "big win". Prior to banning winners, they need to be certain it is really a form of advantage-play and not just dumb luck. Just banning winners at their first "big hit" is a bad practice as it gives the casino reputation of not allowing winners PLUS in the words of a casino owner: Winners come back next day to give back the loan, with interests... (I.e. they need to keep the door open for "lucky winners" to stick to their casino in order to having the chance to have the house edge affect them and get their money back).

- Small casino, third-world. Any of those many places who call themselves "BINGOS": full of slots, automated tables and only a couple real table games. Even if only being a sunday player, a 20K winner, can represent -80K/mo for them, as the owners of these places are usually the most greedy and do not like to close any table in the minus, as soon as ANY player is spotted to having an advantage, he will be more than likely banned, even if 20K.

I know cases of people hitting a win around that and getting banned in-situ at a few of those places. This happening at the automated tables, where 1 number can go max. only to $5, then hitting 20K (and above as it has happened) is quite a feat, and they do accuse the player of cheating, close the automated machine and call the technicians to "fix them" (they scold them even), I've seen it! This is the reality around here, you can't be a consistent winner taking that amount per night -whatever method- at those small places without being spotted. You have to head towards a real casino (at least mid-size) and forget about those "bingo" places to do that.


So what do we learn from the examples above? Each casino is a world, each casino has its own policies when dealing with consistent winners and this is closely related to the level of the stablishment.

One thing the smart consistent winner must be aware of is this: how much can he take at a certain place without being noticed?

Of course, they aren't really that concerned about the system used (progression, regression, positive up-as-you-win, etc.) as to tagging what players to consider a threat. That's the reality. So what really matters to the smart player is not getting flagged to that level. Going unnoticed is a priority for taking the casinos consistently and of course, the smart player knows till where can he do it at the places he visits.

Victor

Victor,

Good points!  Thanks for the examples.  What do you think of the player who consistently wins $1,500 a night (2 or 3 times a wk) at a regular casino?  What if this player was able to do this consistently for years.  What if the casino security saw this same person come in wk after wk and regularly withdraw the same amount using a system they developed (no cheating)?  Would they do something, or would they allow it to continue?

[VLSroulette]

Here an okay casino's VIP room's buy-in goes usually for BF5,000, which is around ~$2,400 (official exchange). As you can see it is still not that much (I.e. this is still 3rd world, and some other countries' casinos require $10K and way more as a VIP area buy-in, consult yours! –and hope you don't live near MonteCarlo).

You take $1,500 3 times a week playing VIP roulette and I guarantee nothing happens. It is well worth the buy-in if you are aiming to medium-high or large wins to play at VIP rooms (ask Herb ).

It all depends. As a general rule, play only manual wheels at land-based casinos and you can do it regularly. When playing regular roulette get in at the busy times for extra coverup OR just do the good ol' splitting trick. See how many casinos are in your area and split target among them. Unless you are into betting an specific wheel with Advantage-Play, for a system player it should be okay to switch wheels.

$1,500 and more is easily achieved at any mid-size casino without too much attention mate. You know, the flock of people (cough/perfect losers/cough) covering the table are there for you to "use them" when aiming for going unnoticed.

Victor

[madupz4]

Victor,

What about Rapid roulette (touch bet) where you have your own touch screen with a real wheel, or RNG roulette machines at the casino (slots).  What if you were to regularly withdraw $1,500 per session at these terminals, what do you think the Casino Management's reaction would be?

[VLSroulette]

Just today I commented something like this with my dealer friend, anything with live dealer is regarded as okay wheel and expected to be hit at times, but he has told me management regard any type of "electronic roulette" (including those with automated physical wheel) as having to be slot-like and EXPECT no consistent big winners on them, hence over here there has been cases on them banning play on these machines based on amounts which will be regarded as okay to be taken at a real table.


At those "electronic machines" credit can go as low as only CENTS and capped low, hence they are expected not to be attacked that bad.

Just past week I witnessed how they closed a table until technicians came to "fix them" out of some people taking Bf12,000 (~$5,5K) in the night and then Bf11,000 (~5,1K) in the morming, that was local BINGO, they barely host two live tables (best choice for the smart player) and the rest are automated wheels: so that's terrible performance for an electronic machine to underperform on their eye, hence they are assumed to be broken, and they accept no further business until technicians open them wide and check. Mind you.

[Mr J]

lol, Do you even know what rapid roulette is? Maybe you should Google it. Its a REAL/LIVE wheel.  Ken

[Mr J]

The post says 'OR'.

[Noble Savage]

Roulette IS 'fixed' to the house's advantage. (the house edge?)

The idea that casinos are fixing an already fixed game is (in at least 99% of the time) nothing more than a manifestation of the gambler's need for an explanation as to why he lost.

[Noble Savage]

Is you crazy.  .  ?

My Pro System won a BIG bet fair and square.  .    (or, so I thought)

The Casino Staff  took me into a small windowless side room.  

I thought they were going to pay me my money.  .  

Wrong !!!

Suddenly, things turned REAL nasty, REAL quick.  .  !

Please DON'T PLAY SILLY GAMES WITH CASINOS.  .  

If you're real lucky they might just kick you out.  

If you're real unlucky they'll probably kick your head in first.  

My advice.  .  ? Keep losing your shirt.  

It's healthier.  .  !

Say what?!

Talk to a lawyer as soon as possible. Make sure it's someone who has experience with gaming/casino law-cases.

[Noble Savage]

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