why I think (most) rng's are not random

[MauiSunset]

@ MauiSunset & darrynf,

I think you've misunderstood how cryptographic hash functions work. The point is that the spins are generated in advance of being given to the player, and the player can confirm this because of the hash. First X spins are generated (you can choose a value for X at Betvoyager, anything up to 60 spins). Then, the hash is generated. You can see what this hash is before you get the spins. After the spins have been shown to the player, one at a time (even though they have already all been generated in advance), the player is able to calculate the hash independently. If there is a difference in hashes, it means one or more of the spins has been changed "en route", as it were.
If there is no difference in hashes, this gives a 100% guarantee that the outcomes were not changed during betting.

But, as far as I'm aware, no online casino other than Betvoyager has this feature.

OK, for those of you who can't get enough RNGs here's a great link: nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml

That algorithm is used by Java, which is on your PC, and can be used in casino games.

numberi+1 = (a * numberi + c) mod m

Basically you take a "seed" number, like 7846236485 and multiply and divide and you get a number which looks random to us mere mortals.  In reality it is not a true random number.

Let's say that we get a number 0 - 36 (Mod 37) which is our European Roulette wheel.  You then put it back in and get another number between 0 and 36 and so on and so on.

Let's say you get 10 of them: 7 12 0 29 4 36 22 14 9 10 and you add them up = 143 this is called the hash number.

However the same numbers in any order will give you 143 for a simple hash number, e.g. 12 0 7 29 9 10 14 22 36 gives 143 too.

All the simple hash number gives us is those 10 numbers and if a casino wants to cheat they can easily send the numbers out in any order they want.  You can take the 10 numbers and reverse them and add them together and so on but there is always a way to screw around with the sequence.

Now a more complex hash function can account for the placement, like 1*7 + 2*12 + 3*0... but even this hash number can be screwed around with.

Honestly, if you guys are worried about RNGs I don't want to bring up the idea of your cell phone sending your GPS location to the authorities 24/7.....

[MauiSunset]

"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."

Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.

"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none.  That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."

Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.

"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."

Not anymore Bozo

"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."

Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.

"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none.  This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.

What's your point?

There are no dark, sinister, forces out to mess around with RNGs at B&M casinos - online casinos I agree can be manipulated (except live TV) so just don't use them.

Problem solved - don't gamble online without live broadcast of a mechanical device that picks the winner.

Honestly, what's the problem?

[gizmotron]

More sophistry from the recreational loser.

Dig this Java master.  You use the mod operator to perform modular arithmetic. You use the random function to get a random number from a specified range like random(37). If you use the mod operator it won't produce a random number from the RNG you think you are talking about. Example: 12 mod 4 -- evaluates to zero, 23 mod 5 -- evaluates to 3 (23 div 5 is 4, with 3 left over)

OK, for those of you who can't get enough RNGs here's a great link: nolinks://nolinks.javamex.com/tutorials/random_numbers/java_util_random_algorithm.shtml

That algorithm is used by Java, which is on your PC, and can be used in casino games.

numberi+1 = (a * numberi + c) mod m

Basically you take a "seed" number, like 7846236485 and multiply and divide and you get a number which looks random to us mere mortals.  In reality it is not a true random number.

Let's say that we get a number 0 - 36 (Mod 37) which is our European Roulette wheel.  You then put it back in and get another number between 0 and 36 and so on and so on.

Let's say you get 10 of them: 7 12 0 29 4 36 22 14 9 10 and you add them up = 143 this is called the hash number.

However the same numbers in any order will give you 143 for a simple hash number, e.g. 12 0 7 29 9 10 14 22 36 gives 143 too.

All the simple hash number gives us is those 10 numbers and if a casino wants to cheat they can easily send the numbers out in any order they want.  You can take the 10 numbers and reverse them and add them together and so on but there is always a way to screw around with the sequence.

Now a more complex hash function can account for the placement, like 1*7 + 2*12 + 3*0... but even this hash number can be screwed around with.

Honestly, if you guys are worried about RNGs I don't want to bring up the idea of your cell phone sending your GPS location to the authorities 24/7.....

[MauiSunset]

More sophistry from the recreational loser.

Dig this Java master.  You use the mod operator to perform modular arithmetic. You use the random function to get a random number from a specified range like random(37). If you use the mod operator it won't produce a random number from the RNG you think you are talking about. Example: 12 mod 4 -- evaluates to zero, 23 mod 5 -- evaluates to 3 (23 div 5 is 4, with 3 left over)

Well, I've reached the point I'm going to have to charge consulting fees to continue this.....

All this means nothing to having a good time gambling.

If you worry about RNGs you are wasting time and should be spending time on something that might actually help you gamble - like money management in Roulette.

[gizmotron]

Modern RNG's on your computer use a process to generate a unique random seed. Many computers do this by selecting a new, unique random seed every time the program using them is started up. Now that that occurs it now will generate random numbers up to 500,000 decisions without beginning to repeat the same numbers in the same sequence. Because of this level of accuracy casinos have algorithms that select new random seeds long before reaching that 500,000 point. I know this because a well known hack was run against casino RNGs a few years ago. They used a computer to find the point in the sequence and then played against it knowing the next outcomes. So now almost all casino machines use 100 to 1,000's of decisions in advanced, then they deliberately change the random seed and do it again. When you sit in front of a casino gaming machine the outcomes are already set for several hours ahead. That's directly from the gaming control inspectors. It's to prevent hacking the RNG.

[gizmotron]

All this means nothing to having a good time gambling.

Losing is such great fun.

[MauiSunset]

Modern RNG's on your computer use a process to generate a unique random seed. Many computers do this by selecting a new, unique random seed every time the program using them is started up. Now that that occurs it now will generate random numbers up to 500,000 decisions without beginning to repeat the same numbers in the same sequence. Because of this level of accuracy casinos have algorithms that select new random seeds long before reaching that 500,000 point. I know this because a well known hack was run against casino RNGs a few years ago. They used a computer to find the point in the sequence and then played against it knowing the next outcomes. So now almost all casino machines use 100 to 1,000's of decisions in advanced, then they deliberately change the random seed and do it again. When you sit in front of a casino gaming machine the outcomes are already set for several hours ahead. That's directly from the gaming control inspectors. It's to prevent hacking the RNG.

Military grade RNGs have an old fashioned FM radio chip that listens for white noise as the seed - advanced RNGs that have access to the internet simply get the current time for the seed.

As far as I know RNGs run constantly at casinos, they start the instant the computer is activated and cycle until the computer is turned off - they multi-task and thus each event interrupt of a button gets a random number that can't be forecasted.

Some games, like BlackJack have to have a set of random numbers generated in order to keep track of so many cards, but Roulette is not like that nor slot machines.

Generating random numbers in advance is a real bad idea to me - I mean really bad.....

[gizmotron]

Military grade RNGs have an old fashioned FM radio chip that listens for white noise as the seed - advanced RNGs that have access to the internet simply get the current time for the seed.

More assumptions? Unix time, or POSIX time is basically the computer's system time. The computer uses it to make up a new random seed. There is no need to connect to the internet. And as I said, they discovered a hack at 500,000 numbers selected. It begins to repeat. That's in all modern computers. Changing the random seed is the fix.

As far as I know RNGs run constantly at casinos, they start the instant the computer is activated and cycle until the computer is turned off - they multi-task and thus each event interrupt of a button gets a random number that can't be forecasted.

Look, that's pre hacked thinking. They know better now. They multi task like you describe but they also defeat ever producing a repeating sequence of numbers. It's new thinking. Try to keep up.

[MauiSunset]

More assumptions? Unix time, or POSIX time is basically the computer's system time. The computer uses it to make up a new random seed. There is no need to connect to the internet. And as I said, they discovered a hack at 500,000 numbers selected. It begins to repeat. That's in all modern computers. Changing the random seed is the fix.

Look, that's pre hacked thinking. They no better now. They multi task like you describe but they also defeat ever producing a repeating sequence of numbers. It's new thinking. Try to keep up.

I'm trying to get a nugget of wisdom out of this - so far I'm not getting far.

Who cares about all of this?  If you do, then don't gamble.

Folks, RNGs are used in casino games all the time and there has never been a news story, from other than UFO fanatics, about cheating.

Casinos in Vegas and around the country don't cheat with a RNG - there is no reason to.  

Internet casinos in Bulgaria probably do cheat with bogus RNGs - don't use them except for entertainment purposes.  Use a live TV feed of a mechanical Roulette wheel instead.

Q.E.D.

[Mr J]

Guys.....Lets please 'cool it' a small bit with ripping on each other. If you dont like a certain something posted, dont respond, very easy to do.

Ken

[gizmotron]

Context, that's what this is about. The thread is about the accuracy of the RNG's being random. Now that could be because they are using bad simulations of randomness or it's because something is being manipulated intentionally to produce a deliberate disadvantage beyond the already well known house's advantage. This new hash function & pre publishing is a landmark breakthrough to prevent tampering or manipulation by cheating casinos. Now I admit that this applies to on-line casinos almost entirely. But this is a fix that should make on-line gambling far more regulated. Many people here are not just gambling in the USA. I'm suggesting that during this thread's discussion Bayes brought a great addition to this topic. It's directly related to RNG cheating.

I'm trying to get a nugget of wisdom out of this - so far I'm not getting far.

Who cares about all of this?  If you do, then don't gamble.

Folks, RNGs are used in casino games all the time and there has never been a news story, from other than UFO fanatics, about cheating.

Casinos in Vegas and around the country don't cheat with a RNG - there is no reason to.  

Internet casinos in Bulgaria probably do cheat with bogus RNGs - don't use them except for entertainment purposes.  Use a live TV feed of a mechanical Roulette wheel instead.

Q.E.D.

[gizmotron]

Guys.....Lets please 'cool it' a small bit with ripping on each other. If you dont like a certain something posted, dont respond, very easy to do.

Ken

Nobody is ripping on each other. We are only discussing the relevance of the thread.

[darrynf]

maybe I dont understand what hash is, sounds like a certain weed lol

I dont need experience to know about hash, I dont care.

the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.

what good is hash on a live table, proberly nothing, gizmo you try saying I know nothing and yet you babble on about stuff that has no meaning (better word would no irrelavince) to roulette.
so what if it is true random, its still hard to beat and please dont bring your stuff about how you THINK YOU CAN BEAT ROULETTE.
i dont need to understand how it is, its just random and im doing fine with my own strategys or you ever do is put people down.

[darrynf]

getting back on the topic, i dont think rng is random at all on a online casino.

over time from what i have seen is that it tends to even it self out, maybe this is to do with something called the law of the 3rd.
i havent read it but i think its to do with big numbers getting even over a long period.

however i think roulette tables are true random, unless they are using magnets or some how been tampered with.

I believe some casinos are cheating and some casinos are good, i havent been playing for years like some but it dosent mean i havent done my research.
i believe people are making money consistently just not many people do it.

[darrynf]

i also dont believe just because you play roulette for years that it makes you more experience, in most cases it makes you a bigger losser cause you still think you can beat it.

and say after you do find a way to beat after 10 years then how much did you lose in that 10 years.

you can try to understand randomness (if thats what you want to call it) or patterns but it is all just from one spin.
may system has done well but i havent been able to test it due to not having spare cash to play and i need to do better money management.

no my system proper system isnt on here as it works so far and i dont think i will post it cause in a way the bets are random but not.
but im as equaly good as the next person.

[darrynf]

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