why I think (most) rng's are not random

[harald]

I played rng and quickly got the feeling that this was not a random thing. To many strange things happens that I've never seen on online live roulette or real roulette. Thing like:

Here I played 2 dozens...and yes it hippytyhopped nicely to every dozen I didn't have...it felt like I was trying to catch a frog but everytime I was 1 step behind.....and look at the numbers...does that seem random? And yes I know this can be random...but if this, and lot's of other things just like this, keep happening over and over again and only at rng and only if your not betting on it then to me it smells at least fishy.

The straw that broke my back was the number 22 dropping 7 times in 14 spins. Believe me or not before the bottom 22's there was also a 22....after 3 times 22 in a row I thought what are the odds?....but a couple of spins later my jaw dropped.....not only 7 times 22 in 14 spins but also 2 times 3 times in a row.


Lot's of people say rng is not random...some say it is. I don't want to be rude but from the people who say it's random I found out that most of them are people who say they have a winning system but can't tell anything about it. To me that sounds a bit like' I have an invissible dragonfriend...and no ofcourse you can't see it'.
Although I thought for sure rng was not random I wanted to be sure...like some people say maby I was just unlucky.....all the time everytime....so I started to do crazy bets and soon find out this is truly not random. Things like this happend over and over again:



1 black and 1 zero in 26 spins...the rest all reds....how many times do you think this will ever happen if you play progressive on red?......now try betting progressive on black and it will happen over and over again. Has any1 ever seen this on a real roulette?

I smilled and kid myself and said man I can make colours and the zero appear at will...but I can't bet on it...what irony.....then I thought this was the best way to proof myself this is not random....because for me that would be 100% proof...if I truly can make the colours appear then....yes then what else can proof it better?.....so here I went:
First I went for black by betting progressive on red....

then after number six I went progressive on black.

If you have a bag of money to burn and nothing to do just try it yourself...you can make the colours and the zero appear at will on a rng.....what proof do you want more?

I did this with 3 different rng's at 3 different casino's....all the same results.....I have so many screenshots it would take hours to all put them here....I wouldn't say these things if only 2 or 3 strange things had happend....and the money I lost is not a nice feeling but I don't cry about...was money for gambling not for food....so I don't put this all here to cry or be a negative nancy...I put this here in the hope that others will be carefull with rng's...wanna play 'm fine...but be carefull. What you see in this topic is proof for me that rng is not random...if some1 has proof it is random I hope you will put it also here.

Oh and yes.....ofcourse the most silly thing of all....if I came to my last euro I always put that on 1 number...in this case it was number 20....look were the ball landed. I contacted the live help...just reset the game he said....so ofcourse bye bye euro.

[MauiSunset]

All random means is that if the wheel was spun 37,000 times then each number, and 0, should show up 1,000 times and it can be in ANY order.

Beyond that 0 could show up 1,000 times in a row and then 1 shows up 1,000 times in a row, etc.

Granted if anything like that occurred there would be questions to answer but seeing Red show up 20 times in a row can easily be expected every night on every Roulette wheel in a casino.

Here's an article about testing: nolinks://nolinks.random.org/analysis/

[gizmotron]

The issue is not the accuracy of randomness in 500,000 spins. The issue is cheating algorithms added to the process.

All you need is an analytical process based on a few if/then based algorithms.

Like this:

Analyze all bets for potential risk to an accrued win rate.

if condition for risk exceeds 90% then execute a correction process

if execute is true then select a number with least payoff.

You could also use it to kill off big payoff bets for progression users.

Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.

[MauiSunset]

The issue is not the accuracy of randomness in 500,000 spins. The issue is cheating algorithms added to the process.

All you need is an analytical process based on a few if/then based algorithms.

Like this:

Analyze all bets for potential risk to an accrued win rate.

if condition for risk exceeds 90% then execute a correction process

if execute is true then select a number with least payoff.

You could also use it to kill off big payoff bets for progression users.

Now all this can happen in a thousandth of a second. You could even use it to facilitate a false video feed. I could do it. You can cut in a false spin with 26 frames per second and only people at the casino would know for sure. That's why spins published daily is a greater way to prevent cheating.

I keep asking why a casino needs to cheat?

Who would do the cheating?  Management?  Why would they risk prison over a few bucks for a company?

They are all parts of Fortune 500 companies in this country and probably large corporations overseas - they make a fortune without cheating.

Since no one has come forward with any credible links on this subject we have to conclude that casinos don't cheat.

If you believe they do then don't gamble - take up another hobby.

To have no evidence and still assume casinos cheat is lunacy - you simply arrive at the same conclusion - don't gamble.....

[schoenpoetser]

The length of a representative sample for a statistic test depends on the possible outcomes of chance.
For this example I don`t account the zero.
numbers  possible  outcomes  36
single street  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,12
double street ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 6
dozen         ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 3   
EC                ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2

Maths use a formula to comput the length of the sample
I think for the numbers a 1M sample is not enough to become trustful results to gather evidence for manipulation.
Suspect results of a 1k sample of the ECs make me suspicion.
MauiS a  row of 20 ECs occurs  on average once in 2^20= 1048576 spins.Compute howmany evenings you can visit the casino to have a chance you will see a row of 20 reds. Sorry I shall not accompany  you.It can happens to morrow but also after years.
I don`t say RNG roulette is cheated but be careful .

[MauiSunset]

Guys, it's becoming painfully obvious that "breaking roulette" quickly runs out of rational theories and we must therefore start down the Twilight Zone path to solutions:

1) There are patterns in random numbers that can be found and used to predict future outcomes
2) Roulette wheels have defects which allow us to find them and use them to predict future outcomes
3) RNGs are flawed and we can find patterns which can be used to predict future outcomes
4) Casinos cheat and want more than the built in house advantage

There are probably more wacky theories that some believe in.

These are ALL phony - there is nothing to any of this.  There are NO links you guys can supply that support these wacky theories and yet these are the foundation to 90% of the crazy systems that float around and are sold.

Money management is 100% under your control as is picking the games you want to play.  Roulette is basically a 50/50 game for EC bets where you are charged a fee (Green 0) once in a while to have fun.  That's what Roulette is.  If you want better odds then play BlackJack or some game where skill makes a big difference.

There is NO skill level in Roulette - you put down your bet and you win or lose.

Folks you are just wasting your time - just have fun gambling, get free drinks, and watch others go nuts gambling - that's what I do............

[VLS]

Some casinos do cheat:

*DOCUMENTED* PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE

[MauiSunset]

Some casinos do cheat:

*DOCUMENTED* PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE

Others have offered this same link as some kind of proof - this is a UFO website - crazy.

The link they give nolinks://web.archive.org/web/20040622061119/nolinks://nolinks.start-your-casino.com/ never works for me and is part of a sales pitch like I've asked for before:

Show me a link from any known news outlet like ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.

Basing proof from a UFO website is just funny, and sad at the same time.  I will admit there are phony software Roulette tables sold as aids for con artists to create a phony track record - the RNG is bogus as is the odds tables.

This has NOTHING to do with casinos - just con artists selling Roulette systems.

This is what some of you believe in?............

[VLS]

You may want to use a proxy of some sort. It is loading OK here in Venezuela right now:

[attachthumb=#]

Sadly, news outlets do not pick up on these histories because we are kind of a "fringe" scene here and the accepted is casinos don't cheat because they don't need to (which is right to say) yet this type of scheme is specially appealing to a casino startup.

Think a bit you are the one setting a new online casino, slots and RNG games only. No live games.

You have a way to guarantee your casino software will get you a fixed % and it is a 0%, no risk at all venture, with only the possibility to make you money.

OR you leave the possibility open to a wealthy punter (I.e. a "whale") hitting you big time and wiping your bank account to send you straight to the poor house.

Some of the people setting up their casino venture may be tempted to removing the possibility of him and his family being wiped to the poor house. In just telling this possibility shouldn't be scrapped entirely. There is a short-term risk when being the bank, while the house edge guarantees long-term profits casinos do experience variance in short term trams, and unit size for some lucky winning punters may be large, and can dent a start-up's limited budget.

Did you read the post where Steven from CelticCasino mentioned the guys offering them cheating software? There are nasty people creating and running those cheating softwares.

Well, not count it at my single personal opinion, count Steven's as well as he experienced an offer.

In the end every person is free to do as he/she pleases.

I'll just be wary of betting at non-reputable casinos. Understanding reputation as a long history of payments, non-rogue attitude towards punters and having been for several years in the business.

And relax a bit mate, I'm not the enemy here.

Regards!

Victor

[VLS]

The post I'm referring to from Steven is:

[attachimg=#]



Perhaps we are wrong, but it is only common sense not to play on start-up ventures from less than a year.

Regards and just wanting to help here.

[MauiSunset]

I thought everyone knew this but I'll say it again:

100% of the software/systems/techniques for sale that claim to "beat Roulette" are phony - 100%, no exceptions.

All of them cheat with their "proof" - if they show you a YouTube with their "system" winning, that Roulette table is one of the rigged ones - they can be made to look like ANY casino in existence.

The crooks who sell these systems buy the bogus casino and pay big bucks and then get to screw around with the odds table and the wheel (RNG).

All of them.

That's why you need to see a LIVE TV Roulette wheel spinning from a known online casino and watch any demo there.

Believe it or not the world is full of folks who will screw you for a few bucks.........

P.S.
The other way they cheat is to play dozens of sessions and film each one of them.  Eventually one will win and that's all you see on YouTube as "proof".

If anyone had a system that worked it would NOT be for sale at any price - the author would spend 24/7 online and at B&M casinos - all day long - his wife would be there, his kids, all the in-laws, everyone that he could trust NOT to release the system.

Let's get real here folks..........

[VLS]

I thought everyone knew this but I'll say it again:

100% of the software/systems/techniques for sale that claim to "beat Roulette" are phony - 100%, no exceptions.

All of them cheat with their "proof" - if they show you a YouTube with their "system" winning, that Roulette table is one of the rigged ones - they can be made to look like ANY casino in existence.

The crooks who sell these systems buy the bogus casino and pay big bucks and then get to screw around with the odds table and the wheel (RNG).

All of them.

That's why you need to see a LIVE TV Roulette wheel spinning from a known online casino and watch any demo there.

Believe it or not the world is full of folks who will screw you for a few bucks.........

P.S.
The other way they cheat is to play dozens of sessions and film each one of them.  Eventually one will win and that's all you see on YouTube as "proof".

If anyone had a system that worked it would NOT be for sale at any price - the author would spend 24/7 online and at B&M casinos - all day long - his wife would be there, his kids, all the in-laws, everyone that he could trust NOT to release the system.

Let's get real here folks..........

Ok dear Maui, thanks for reminding us.

Cheers!

[MauiSunset]

Ok dear Maui, thanks for reminding us.

Cheers!

You ought to run a poll and ask some questions about the belief structure of the folks here:

Q1: Out of all the Roulette systems for sale how many can double your money in 2 hrs of play?
A1: More than 100
A2: 50 - 100
A3: 25 - 50
A4: Less than 25
A5: None of the above

Q2: Finding patterns in past spins of the Roulette wheel is:
A1: You need to be a mathematician to do it
A2: Not that hard - many do  it all the time
A3: Hard but there are systems for sale that will help you
A4: Only a hand full can do this with years of training
A5: None of the above

Q3: How many folks here, at this chat room, make a tidy sum of money playing Roulette online?
A1: 100+
A2: More than 50 but not 100
A3: More than 25 but 50 is way too many
A4: 10 or less
A5: None of the above

I could come up with more and I think it would be a hoot to see the results..........(Don't allow folks to see the results until the poll closes)

[VLS]

I could come up with more and I think it would be a hoot to see the results..........(Don't allow folks to see the results until the poll closes)

By all means feel free to do the poll!

nolinks://vlsroulette.com/gambling-and-roulette-related/?action=post;poll

Cheers!

[harald]

I keep asking why a casino needs to cheat?

Why do a lot gamblers keep gambling after a win?...why do a lot of druglords keep selling drugs if they have millions and millions on the bank? Why do banks and insurrancecompanies steal money from hard working people? Why do most churches 'steal' money from their followers?
In every corner were money is found there is cheating....do you really think in all erea's they are cheating accept the casino's?

Who would do the cheating?  Management?  Why would they risk prison over a few bucks for a company?

To me it sounds like a perfect way to cheat. Because how in heavens name can you prove the cheating? And besides that see what 'proof' i put up here and people still like to tell it's fair instead of trying the evidence even if they have no drop of evidence themself. Why?...maby that has something to do with seeing ufo's? Didn't you say something to me about seeing ufo's? But aren't you the one who believes in something without any proof at all? Trust me i don't wanna attack you or anything but my proof and the proof of many others is maby not so impressive but at least it is something. And were mostly gamblers here so i think most will agree that something beats your nothing.

Anyhow.....I ask you again...please try it for yourselff.
Rng is a piece of software.....a (online) slotmachine can be put in different levels of payout....say level 1 is paying a lot and level 5 is paying little...why not the same kind of system for rng? And if a gamming commisson checks the software maby they just see that at that moment the software is on level 1. And as soon as Elvis has left the building they put it back to level 5...who knows? Who can proof it? It's software...you can do anything with it. That's why i think it's so important to check it for yourself...and see it with your own eyes.

They are all parts of Fortune 500 companies in this country and probably large corporations overseas - they make a fortune without cheating.
Since no one has come forward with any credible links on this subject we have to conclude that casinos don't cheat.
If you believe they do then don't gamble - take up another hobby.

Again you blow things out of proportion...and make it way to black and white.
I talked about rng...not casino's m8. And there's proof enough.
The proof i gave is proof seen by my own eyes...but let's forget about eyes for a second...and start talking brains....think about things like why can you start betting with 1c at some rng? And why are most table limits for rng lower then normal roulette? In my mind purely for progressive betting and for all those people with 'systems'. Because that's where the casino's gets the most profit from....people with 'systems'. They make way less money from people who goes to casino's for a great night out and spend 100 euro. Those people only cost money after all the free drinks and food etc.

If i was a betting man...and i am...i would bet that most people who play rng are people with a 'system'.
And in my mind rng is purely programmed for people with 'systems'....that's the only reason you see 20 systems/colours/combinations/patterns on the hour every hour.....and that is why some people see a 'system' (ufo). So i do understand why people are trying to protect the randomness of rng like a mother would protect her child....but trust me all those way to obvious patterns are just like teasers at a slotmachine....things like bar bar cherry 4 times an hour. Rng is software and it reacts on your betting and bankroll...it has nothing to do with random number generating..

To have no evidence and still assume casinos cheat is lunacy - you simply arrive at the same conclusion - don't gamble.....

You keep telling no evidence.....but if i hit you hard on the head with a spoon and say 'there is no spoon'...do you believe me or the pain on your head?.....again try the evidence....if you don't believe your own eyes then please tell me what would be evidence for you?

[harald]

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