why I think (most) rng's are not random

[gizmotron]

maybe I dont understand what hash is, sounds like a certain weed lol

I dont need experience to know about hash, I dont care.

the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.

what good is hash on a live table, proberly nothing, gizmo you try saying I know nothing and yet you babble on about stuff that has no meaning (better word would no irrelavince) to roulette.
so what if it is true random, its still hard to beat and please dont bring your stuff about how you THINK YOU CAN BEAT ROULETTE.
I dont need to understand how it is, its just random and im doing fine with my own strategys or you ever do is put people down.

save this

[xman1970]

some more thoughts, questions n answers about this can be found in this old thread.......

nolinks://vlsroulette.com/live-roulette-casinos/if-rng-aren%27t-fixed-then-why/

[darrynf]

@gizmo

my system would beat your system hands down any day of the week.

you do that test with maui and i will do the test as well and show that my system will wipe your so called system.

why dont you drop your big bomb and wipe roulette of the earth or is it just a pebble you are holding.

opps maybe i should play nice, my system against yours.
tired of you babbling, lets see what you are made of!

[gizmotron]

I also dont believe just because you play roulette for years that it makes you more experience, in most cases it makes you a bigger losser cause you still think you can beat it.

and say after you do find a way to beat after 10 years then how much did you lose in that 10 years.

you can try to understand randomness (if thats what you want to call it) or patterns but it is all just from one spin.
may system has done well but I havent been able to test it due to not having spare cash to play and I need to do better money management.

no my system proper system isnt on here as it works so far and I dont think I will post it cause in a way the bets are random but not.
but im as equaly good as the next person.

save this

[darrynf]

whats with your saving gizmo.

its not going anywhere.

[gizmotron]

whats with your saving gizmo.

its not going anywhere.

I just wanted these two things saved for posterity. It's not so much deliberate sophistry as it is naiveté. I happen to know the stage you are going through. It's riddled with magical beliefs. You attempt to marginalize my use of randomness and yet you clearly have never studied it. All I ever get from you is your excuses of why you won't. It might impress others but it completely falls on its face with me. I also wanted a clear record of who it is that is throwing the rocks.

[darrynf]

I just wanted these two things saved for posterity. It's not so much deliberate sophistry as it is naiveté. I happen to know the stage you are going through. It's riddled with magical beliefs. You attempt to marginalize my use of randomness and yet you clearly have never studied it. All I ever get from you is your excuses of why you won't. It might impress others but it completely falls on its face with me. I also wanted a clear record of who it is that is throwing the rocks.

this makes no sence gizmo, you are just babbling to make your self look better (well thats what you want to think).
I have never given an excuss on here about anything, however you give excusses like there is a tomorrow.
i dont believe in magic gizmo, i have what i think and you have what you think, i dont mock you for what you think but the way you talk. (maybe i have but you really anoy me).

im pretty sure i dont impress others gitmo, i have beliefes and im not going to alow a person like you to tell me what i should and what i shouldnt believe in.
funny thing is you think you are or think you know the secrit to roulette but i think you know nothing and have nothing and thats why you keep stalling, because you have nothing and you copy other people.
sometimes i think you are a kid behind a desk and other times i think you are a grumpy old man behind a desk

[darrynf]

@gizmo

you are one person i will never respect or listen to, not because of what you say or what you think is right or wrong but because the way you are to people, knock them down if they dont agree with you.

you really are arogant, i dont care if i get kick of this forum from saying what i think about you.

i tried to have a conversation with you then you knock me cause i wouldnt agree with you, tough, not everyone agrees with you gizmo, even more so not many people like you.

i dont hassle you to impress others, its simpler then that, you are just a git.

[darrynf]

"2 identical RNGs generate the same identical stream of numbers - that's how your garage door opener works."

Only if the random seed is exactly the same. That's how your garbage man takes out the trash.

"There is NO fool proof way to work with a RNG - none.  That is why I recommend folks use a live spinning wheel on TV."

Until now that is, but you don't know what you are talking about yet anyway. You don't know the value of publishing the hash of ten spins before they are used by the casino.

"The only way to feel comfortable gambling when a RNG is involved is to rely on a B&M casino with an active gaming commission that opens the equipment and checks seals to make sure no one has tampered with the computers."

Not anymore Bozo

"Beyond that you're a conspiracy kook if you worry about RNGs - just stop gambling is your only option."

Take that from a guy that admits that losing is fun and recreation that you all owe to yourselves.

"Again I ask - show me the proof - there ain't none.  This is just gibberish that has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with kooks............." You really don't know SHIT! What a faker you really are. Just another argumentative adolescent troll.

Save this

[darrynf]

why names gitmo, he dosent agree with you just like me

[Bayes]

the fact is just because betvoyager appears to be inocent dosent mean they are, im sure this hash can be minipulated as well.
you cant see the numbers before they are drawn ptherwise everyone would win, so dont give me this bullshit about random and hash stuff.
fact is if its going to cheat (and im not saying bet voyager is cheating) theres nothing you can do to beat that.

No, you haven't understood, and neither has MauiSunset. Let's start over; if an online casino wanted to cheat you, how would they go about it?

We can rule out any form of deliberate non-randomness or bias built-in to the RNG. Why? simply because it's not in the casino's interest. If there was any kind of systematic non-randomness, then players would soon catch on to this and take advantage of it, exactly the same as in a B & M casino.

Some people think that online casinos have computer programs running which analyse your play and try to figure out your system, that's why they say you should do things like not play for too long at one casino, or try to "mix things up" as much as possible. This scenario sounds absurd to me; apart from anything else, it would be expensive in terms of resources (having the code running, paying a programmer to do the coding etc). Also, supposing they do manage to find a pattern in your playing, there's no guarantee that you will continue to play this way, they would be simply guessing. It would be going to a lot of trouble for an uncertain payoff, and they already make a profit without doing it.

The easiest way to cheat would be to just wait until you have placed a bet, then give you any spin which is other than what you're betting on, agreed?

[darrynf]

i agree with that baye,

i wasnt saying casinos cheat i was just saying that its possible.

one thing you said it would take time and money for a programmer to be there.
i think they would have alot of programmers, theyearn millions and i wouldnt underestimate what they are capalbe of doing.
i dont think they need to cheat but i think the option is there for them.

random is hard to beat anyway and i really dont see why they need to cheat but dosent mean they wont ever.

[Bayes]

one thing you said it would take time and money for a programmer to be there.
I think they would have alot of programmers, theyearn millions and I wouldnt underestimate what they are capalbe of doing.
I dont think they need to cheat but I think the option is there for them.

Ok, let's admit that the possibility is there for them analysing your bets in the hope of cracking your betting strategy. If you were simply betting red all the time, it wouldn't take them long to discover it (there's no guarantee that you will continue to bet red, of course). But if you were betting randomly (say, by using a coin flip), there's no way for them to even make an intelligent guess what you'll bet next. The point is, in this scenario things are under your control, not theirs.

Put that possibility to one side and think about the 3rd scenario (and the most obvious one) - that each spin is generated after you have made your bet. In this case, you are helpless; wherever you bet, you're doomed because they can choose which spin will come up next, and so control whether you will win or not.

What the hash does is guarantee that the spin is generated not after you bet, but before. That being the case, you are assured that any bets you make can't make any difference to the outcome, because the outcome (next spin) has already happened. It appears that the outcome hasn't happened yet - you don't actually see the next outcome until you've made a bet, but the outcome was already there, it just hasn't been displayed in the marquee yet.

A hash is just a sequence of numbers and letters which is generated by a computer program. Betvoyager uses something called the SHA-256 algorithm to produce a hash. For a fixed sequence of text, the algorithm will always generate the same hash. For example, if you input the number 10, the hash will be:

4a44dc15364204a80fe80e9039455cc1608281820fe2b24f1e5233ade6af1dd5

Another property is that you cannot take a given hash and work out what the input was, so there is no way to know that the number 10 generated this hash. However, if the input was not 10, but say 17, the hash would be completely different.
These algorithms are used for things like keeping passwords secure, and in fact the security of the internet depends on this technology. This particular algorithm is very secure, and there have been no known instances of it ever being "cracked".

Another use of this type of algorithm is to ensure that a message that you send is not corrupted en route. First, input the message into the hash algorithm. The hash is generated. Now when your message is received you can know that it hasn't been intercepted and changed if when it arrives, you run the hash algorithm again on the message and it produces the exact same hash. If the message had been changed (even very slightly, say by removing one letter or number) the hash would be completely different.

This is the principle used by Betvoyager. Instead of a message, the input is a sequence of roulette numbers (or maybe just 1). When you play at Betvoyager, you have the option of seeing what the hash is before you play any spins, then, when the spin has appeared, you can input the number into the hash algorithm and check that the same hash is generated. If it is (and it always is), you have a 100% guarantee that the numbers were generated before you made your bets, and therefore there was no cheating by giving you spins which would make you lose.

You can see a demo of how to use it here:

nolinks://nolinks.betvoyager.com/demo/roulette.htm

By the way, if you're thinking that they can still be cheating because both hashes are generated by Betvoyager, there are sites that will allow you to input text and generate the hash, so you can verify independently that the hash is the same, without relying on the honesty of Betvoyager.

[MauiSunset]

Just who would authorize this cheating at a B&M casino?

Take Vegas, the casinos on "the strip" are all owned by Fortune 500 companies - who authorizes all this cheating?

The CEO/COO/GM of the Fortune 500 company?  What's in it for him?  Does the casino send an armored truck to the Fortune 500 company located thousands of miles away?

Ok, if it isn't the CEO of the Fortune 500 company is it the GM of the casino?  Does an armored car visit his house each week with the spoils of the evil RNGs?

CPAs audit all the casinos - where do the profits from all the cheating go, under "Corrupt RNGs in casino"?

Come on guys - this is conspiracy theory stuff - there is no way to make any money illegally from corrupt RNGs in the casino.

This is just "crazy talk" from conspiracy kooks that see evil plots against them when they lose at Roulette - it was the corrupt RNGs doing it.

Give me a break...........

[gizmotron]

This is just "crazy talk" from conspiracy kooks that see evil plots against them when they lose at Roulette - it was the corrupt RNGs doing it.

The online casinos have nearly no regulation or governing body that actually checks every line of source code for their online table games. This is not true of B&M casinos here in the USA. If there is ever going to be access by American players it will need this kind of tampering protection. Do you really think the best advice is to play an actual live wheel online to protect the fairness of the process? Or how about your own advice to play in B&M casinos only. That's just an excuse also isn't it? Perhaps your own advice is to selectively discern your own convenient conspiracy and act according to that. You are now conflicted based on real world issues and this topic.

For the first time it is now possible to trust the online casinos, if they were to adapt this technique that is. It really comes down to that old axiom "the old bottom line." With this players can bet knowing that no tampering has taken place. They can play as long as they want to. They can bet on what they want to without the need to mask their technique. I think you are attempting to dodge the issue by the use of deflection. It's a kind of kookiness all its own.

[gizmotron]

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